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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#711

Post by leobg »

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them.

That is absurd.

Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved and combined for the common good.

OpenAI built on the shoulders of almost every person that wrote text on a website, authored a book, or shared a video online. Now others build on the shoulders of OpenAI. How should the former be legal but not the latter?

Can’t have it both ways, Sam.

(IAAL, for what it’s worth.)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#713

Post by duchenne »

The reasoning happens in the chain of thoughts. But OpenAI (aka ClosedAI) doesn't show this part when you use the o1 model, whether through the API or chat. They hide it to prevent distillation. Deepseek, though, has come up with something new.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#714

Post by XorNot »

Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

Yep: this is face-saving my Sam Altman.

OpenAI has a message they need to tell investors right now: "DeepSeek only works because of our technology. Continue investing in us."

The choice of how they're wording that of course also tells you a lot about who they think they're talking to: namely, "the Chinese are unfairly abusing American companies" is a message that is very popular with the current billionaires and American administration.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#715

Post by worik »

kelnos wrote: post #577
Austiiiiii wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to do so. If America is forced to use only the clunky corporate-owned American AI at a fee, we'll very quickly fall behind competitors worldwide who use DeepSeek models to produce better results for much, much cheaper. Not to mention it'd defeat the whole purpose of a "free market" economy. (Not that that means much of anything anymore)

It never meant anything. There's no such thing as a free market economy. We haven't had one of those in modern times, and arguably human civilization has never had one. Markets and their participants have chronically been subject to information asymmetry, coercion/manipulation, and regulation, among other things. I don't think all of that is a bad thing (regulation tends to make it harder to do the first two things),…

Yes, technically and pedantically you are correct.

But restricting the trade in micro chips only because the USA is afraid it will loose a technical and commercial edge is a long long way from a free market.

It is too late, too. China has broken out and they are ahead in many fields. Not trading chips with them will make them build their own foundries. In two decades they will be as far ahead there as they are in many other fields.

If the USA would trade then the technological capacities of China and the USA would stay matched, as they help each other. China ahead in some areas, the USA ahead in others.

That would still (probably) not be a pure Free Market but it would be a freer market, and better for everybody except a few elites (on both sides)

Madness is taking root

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#716

Post by golly_ned »

SilverBirch wrote: post #92

I think OpenAI is in a really weak position here. There are essentially two positions you can be in: You can be the agile new startup that can break the rules and move fast. That's what OpenAI used to be. Or you can be the big incumbent who is going to use your enormous resources to crush your opposition. That's Google & Microsoft here. For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you tra…

> they're still a minnow

3K+ employees, $3B+ revenue, ... sure, not BigTech but hardly a minnow. A company that big can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#717

Post by katamari-damacy »

miki123211 wrote: post #677
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

> This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data IANAL, but It is worth noting here that DeepSeek has explicitly consented to a license that doesn't allow them to do this . That is a condition of using the Chat GPT and the OpenAI API. Even if the courts affirm that there's a fair use defence for AI training, DeepSeek may still be in the wrong here, not because of cop…

[dead]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#718

Post by like_any_other »

miki123211 wrote: post #677
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

> This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data IANAL, but It is worth noting here that DeepSeek has explicitly consented to a license that doesn't allow them to do this . That is a condition of using the Chat GPT and the OpenAI API. Even if the courts affirm that there's a fair use defence for AI training, DeepSeek may still be in the wrong here, not because of cop…

Legally, I understand your point, but morally, I find it repellent that a breach of contract (especially terms-of-service) could be considered more important than a breach of law. Especially since simply existing in modern society requires us to "agree" to dozens of such "contracts" daily.

I hope voters and governments put a long-overdue stop to this cancer of contract-maximalism that has given us such benefits as mandatory arbitration, anti-benchmarking, general circumvention of consumer rights, or, in this case, blatantly anti-competitive terms, by effectively banning reverse-engineering (i.e. examining how something works, i.e. mandating that we live in ignorance).

Because if they don't, laws will slowly become irrelevant, and our lives governed by one-sided contracts.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#719

Post by blibble »

miki123211 wrote: post #677
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

> This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data IANAL, but It is worth noting here that DeepSeek has explicitly consented to a license that doesn't allow them to do this . That is a condition of using the Chat GPT and the OpenAI API. Even if the courts affirm that there's a fair use defence for AI training, DeepSeek may still be in the wrong here, not because of cop…

training is either fair use, or it isn't

OpenAI can't have it both ways

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#720

Post by pizzathyme »

Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

This is a fascinating development because AI models may turn out to be like pharmaceuticals. The first pill costs $500 million to make, the second one costs pennies.
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