The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community • Hacker News Board

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#711

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:30 PM UTC

lovethevoid wrote: post #450

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the following: 1. The chief unit and source of community is the family. The married couple, the family, have been deteriorating for some time. It shouldn't be surprising that the consequences would spread outward. Societies are a manner of extended family organized according to the principle of subsidiary. 2. American culture especially is hyperindividualistic. It conceives of people not as persons, but as i…

> The chief unit and source of community is the family. This view stems from Judeo-Christian beliefs. The very invention of marriage was a separation of community, where men wanted ownership of women and their children. I also wonder if you're fully aware of how much you've attempted to repackage the original sin in your comment.

Not at all. Family units are extremely widespread in cultures around the world, including those that have had little or no contact with Judeo-Christian beliefs. Nearly all cultures have them.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#712

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #657

anon291 wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sexual revolution is intrinsically linked to the lack of community. The sexual revolution is not actually about free sex. People have been having weird sex for centuries; with or without their partners knowing. What is novel about the sexual revolution is that it dismissed any needs for norms. Over the past two decades we've seen non-religious attempts to reinstate those norms (consent, kink, safe words, etc). Ho…

The Catholic sex abuse scandal was never about the actual abuse, which is presumed constant between religions. It was always about the coverup. Only the Catholic Church has the preexisting organization to pull off such a scandal; the others simply had controversial youth pastors who stopped showing up one day.

If there were any other groups with an organization capable of pulling off coverups, we'd never know about it, because they would have covered it up.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#713

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

mistrial9 wrote: post #404

nineplay wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unavoidable in Christianity. Even if one's immediate religious society doesn't believe in hell, it is trivially easy to find other societies which do, and other societies that believe that everyone is damned except for people who've accepted the 'right' concept in the 'right' way. I can't tell you how relieved I was when I realized I could become an Atheist and mostly put the matter out of my mind. Quick…

this is really odd to read, since almost all of the Protestant-related theology in the US West seems to have dropped evil and hell almost entirely. At a graduate theology seminar on the History of Religion in America, Professor Robert McDermott asked the group "How many of you believe in 'evil' ?" and only half the class raised their hands (about a dozen).

You are speaking of what is called "mainline Protestantism."

Catholicism is, by far, the largest Christian denomination in the US.

Moreover, large areas in the south, midwest, and California favor the "evangelical" and "fundamentalist" varieties of Protestant theology, where Hell (and inculcating mass fear of Hell) is very much the central concern today.

Your immediate local community likely does not have many of either group.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#714

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:41 PM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #661

scruple wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The church that I was raised in and grew up in for the first 18 years of my life... I became a militant atheist when I left that church at 18, close to 30 years ago. In my 30s, I started to drift between Zen Buddhism, Druidry, wicca, paganism, looked into Daoism, and on and on it went. And I finally realized, quite recently, that I had a God-shaped hole running right through the center of me. I still haven't quite fi…

I (somewhat unknowingly) spent several months of immersion in a Hindu monastery. At least in the branch they practiced, they were very clear that your internal beliefs on the theology were far less important than doing the practices that will bring you benefits in this very lifetime—no need to reincarnate to enjoy your positive karma. Christianity puts too much emphasis on belief and not enough on rituals & practices…

Catholic and Orthodox Christians still retain and practice vast repertoires of rituals. They are not thriving amidst our skeptical public.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#715

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:44 PM UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #264

Filligree wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. > I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. It is a problem, but…

I am surprised this needs to be pointed out, but people generally believe their religion to be true and do not find it at odds with reality at all. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them just because they believe it, but it is certainly not the case that religion is false in a provable sense, nor that religiosity is incompatible with valuing reality.

On the contrary, most religions assert that their particular views are the _only_ valid ones -- and many require their adherents to actively proselytize, to try to convert others to their dogma.

These views are replete with many untestable and non-falsifiable axiomatic assumptions, which must be accepted on "faith."

That word means "accepting the validity of those axioms _despite_ their lack of congruence with reality."

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#716

Post by luzojeda » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 5:00 PM UTC

frithsun wrote: post #636

frithsun wrote: post #44

We lack the moral courage to be honest about why real world community disintegrated and are therefore doomed to suffer these pedantic lectures that miss the point and point in random directions.

Immigration and assimilation policies in the west have been too rapid, faster than even those who think they're open minded can adapt to new people. The result is a pervasive societal siege mentality with everybody retreating into their homes. The Starbucks data on where "third places" are thriving or dying aligns very well with this model. The answer is as obvious as it is unwelcome, which is it slow down a bit and…

Didn't read but will that article since it sounds interesting. But does Starbucks mention their potential to be a third place? Because as long as you have to pay for something to stay a certain amount of time it will never be a third place. It is, in my experience, a more relaxed place regarding the relationship consumed/time in the place compared to other cafés but that is not all that makes a third place.

I mean, I would never consider just go to a Starbucks and expect to meet people without having to pay for something

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#717

Post by electrosphere » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 5:01 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #631

p1mrx wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s weird that groups like the Elks have declined so much in recent decades https://www.elks.org/who/missionStatement.cfm "To be accepted as a member, one must [...] believe in God" There are groups like UU and Sunday Assembly that don't have this requirement.

Belief is a spectrum and there is no way to externally verify it. In fact, even if you could externally verify, you'll find that there is a wide range of beliefs even among those who "legitimately" believe. A cult of personality around a magic man in the sky is in the grand scheme of things not much different than a cult of personality around some celebrity or politician/party. A requirement to "believe" in god has t…

I wish more people would understand this.

I was borna Muslim but I consider myself a "cultural Muslim" and do not look into it any further.

It does not stop me volunteering at my local mosque food bank etc. The social interaction and doing some good for the community trumps any views I have on the religion.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#718

Post by alwa » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #682

Nextgrid wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is under more pressure thanks to cost of living and Western society being a property-indexed Ponzi scheme which requires endless growth just to keep up. Back when rent/home ownership was affordable and everyone had more "slack" it's easy to add humanity to transactions - you can spare the small opportunity cost even though you'd make more money short-term ignoring humanity and focusing purely on transactiona…

It's mildly interesting to consider that one of the main arguments against an economically deflationary society is that people would have a motivation to hoard money which might deter things like investment or lending, yet in an inflationary society few seem concerned about the fact that we create a system that motivates trying to hoard 'things', including land. It also motivates trying to rent things to people inste…

I take your point that I’ve never really been asked to think about inflationary economies encouraging hoarding things, especially things whose scarcity stems from natural limits rather than economic will. But at the risk of showing my naiveté—wouldn’t it be OK for me to exchange money for enough stuff for me to be content, as soon in my economic life as I can, and hold onto it? For that matter, isn’t it to my advantage that it’s economically desirable for landlords and car rental firms to let me rent a high-value item—like a car for the 3 days a year I need it, or an apartment in a city where I’m only going to live for a few years—instead of making me wait until I’ve made enough money to buy it outright before I can access it at all? Is the idea that if I could instead hoard currency of a fixed value, I would then not hoard naturally scarce things/resources that I judge likely to improve in value?

Re: [1], see also HN discussion [2] (2020, 808 points, 454 comments) wrestling with the many competing theories about “what,” if anything specific, “happened in 1971.” It raises several possibilities outside the gold standard.

See also a more substantial (or at least lengthier) methodological critique [3] (6 months ago, 40 points, 42 comments). The HN discussion includes reactions both of gold/bitcoin enthusiasts and of economically opinionated folks less committed to that way of seeing the world.

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25188457

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39144867

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#719

Post by a123b456c » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #663

vishnugupta wrote: post #101

One big change I've noticed between growing up in a small town and now where I'm in my mid 40s in a big metro city in India is increased "transactional" nature of interactions of my daily life. Back then we had a deeper ties with all those who served us by which I mean vegetable vendor, carpenter, doctor, knife sharpener, cloth shop, grocer, baker and so on. Whenever we interacted with them it would be a small chit-c…

This maps to my experience as well. I see families struggle with things I don’t recall seeing as a kid or teenager. We all had more people around. We were rarely functioning as such independent family units. And you’re right, my dad was a carpenter himself and he did all kinds of favours for people. Especially elderly people—mostly women—who couldn’t do the work themselves or easily afford to pay someone to. He would…

I mean, it's still possible to have non-transactional interactions.

Many service providers appear truly surprised and then appreciative when I simply ask them how their day is going.

Edit: Or maybe the surprise comes when they notice that I'm actually listening to their answer.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#720

Post by Moldoteck » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 5:17 PM UTC

fergonco wrote: post #57

Just a data point: In Valencia, Spain, in the 80s, children played in the street with no much supervision from parents. Occasionally we would stop the football match to let a car drive by. Forgetting your keys at home was no issue, you could get a glass of milk in ten different places while you wait for other (more attentive) members of your family. Nowadays there is hardly a place to park your car. Parents don't all…

Interesting, usually cars are characterized as anti social elements. These are loud, take lots of space, so lower density, polluting and require license and you can't drink alcohol. Bikes on the other hand are considered more friendly as human centric element