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Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#711

Post by AnthonyMouse »

willseth wrote: post #688
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that kind of the point? The goal was to get out of Apple's clutches when your customers have their devices, so Apple made the thing meant to be independent even more dependent than the original in order to deter adoption.

The parent comment cited Web Distribution as evidence that Apple doesn't actually care about safety and security, when in fact Web Distribution is more secured than Marketplace distribution. > The goal was to get out of Apple's clutches when your customers have their devices Whose goal? Read the DMA. It is very explicit that it expects Apple to maintain security of devices and apps.

> The parent comment cited Web Distribution as evidence that Apple doesn't actually care about safety and security, when in fact Web Distribution is more secured than Marketplace distribution.

Which goes to the parent's point that their intent is to prevent competition. Otherwise why would the alternative need more onerous security measures, if not to act as a deterrent through friction?

> Read the DMA. It is very explicit that it expects Apple to maintain security of devices and apps.

It also says that the security measures have to be "strictly necessary" and "there are no less-restrictive means to safeguard the integrity of the hardware or operating system" and "[t]he gatekeeper should be prevented from implementing such measures as a default setting or as pre-installation" etc.

Which implies to me that you not only have to be able to turn them off, they have to be off by default.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#712

Post by dkarras »

layer8 wrote: post #561
dkarras wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they should be forced to develop the SDK and the dev tools for free and provide that support for free? I mean it would be very nice of them to do so, but legally forcing them to do it? I don't know about that. It is a shortsighted "solution".

I believe they would be allowed to charge for the SDK and the dev tools as long as they don’t require developers to use that SDK and the dev tools. I’m sure someone else would provide an alternative SDK and tooling then.

But is it even legally required for them to provide a stable 3rd party software support? That would be ridiculous. So if they put in the effort to provide such a base and open it to public, why can't they choose to be compensated for that work?

My problem can be summarized as (assume the company in question is not a monopoly):

* Is it illegal to sell a device with a microprocessor in it that has no support for 3rd party programmability? -> no, most digital devices are like this in fact.

* Is it illegal to sell a computing device and develop software in house for it? Maybe charge for some of it? Still with no 3rd party support? -> no it is not illegal.

* Is it illegal then, to contract other developers / companies to write that "in house" software for the device you are making? -> no that is not illegal

* Is it illegal to make agreements with other companies to buy software / programming services from them to include in your device? -> no that is not illegal

* Is it illegal to make agreements with other companies so that they can sell licenses to "unlock" their software in your device and get a cut from their sales? -> no it is not illegal

* Is it illegal to sell dev kits to the the above? So the device in question is still not a device you can develop on - but you can create another device where 3rd parties can develop on, and you can sell it to them. You can also pick and choose which companies you will work with. None of this is illegal.

* Is it illegal to automate all of the above? Provide low barrier to entry, no bureaucracy, if you want to develop for the device just do, pay us $100 a year, and give us a cut and you are golden! No need to get into direct contact with us, wait months to get our manual approval - we streamline everything and even the little guy can participate? -> HN thinks that this suddenly must be illegal. If they are providing all this service, they should be legally forced to do all for free.

I just don't get the logic.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#713

Post by ben_w »

brianwawok wrote: post #702
ben_w wrote: post #701

So now we can apparently have arbitrary 3rd party malware on yet another platform (it's not going to get less frequent by virtue of not being on the Apple App Store, is it?), who should I look to for decent, preferably also not battery killing, anti-virus software for iOS?

Why can’t you pay your 30% for the App Store?

Why do you think that response has anything to do with my question?

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#714

Post by phh »

pjerem wrote: post #700
Spivak wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part? I don't think the EU can rule that Apple can't charge publishers to be on iOS. This isn't malicious compliance, sans the size requirement it's exactly what they asked for. This keeps happening where people keep hitching "I don't want to pay Apple" to every wagon except a law that requires Apple to make access to iOS free. "Allow other payment processors": Okay you still pay 27% "Allow other stores": Okay…

> I don't think the EU can rule that Apple can't charge publishers to be on iOS. Oh I think the EU can rule whatever they want on their domestic market. Apple can try to find all the holes they want, the Commission is probably just taking notes of those holes to fix them in the DMA 1.1 I really think Apple (and Meta, fwiw) is making a huge mistake if they think they are in position to negociate anything. DMA is here…

> if the goal isnt reached, there will be enough iterations until achievement.

I wish I was as optimistic as you. GPDR was already supposed to be such an improvement. I have no doubt that current Apple's dance won't work. But I don't think any European company will actually benefit from DMA. (I'd say the ones who will really benefit from it are Epic Games and Google, maybe Mozilla a bit)

That being said, I'm very happy the EU implemented the DMA.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#715

Post by letsdothisagain »

pjerem wrote: post #700
Spivak wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part? I don't think the EU can rule that Apple can't charge publishers to be on iOS. This isn't malicious compliance, sans the size requirement it's exactly what they asked for. This keeps happening where people keep hitching "I don't want to pay Apple" to every wagon except a law that requires Apple to make access to iOS free. "Allow other payment processors": Okay you still pay 27% "Allow other stores": Okay…

> I don't think the EU can rule that Apple can't charge publishers to be on iOS. Oh I think the EU can rule whatever they want on their domestic market. Apple can try to find all the holes they want, the Commission is probably just taking notes of those holes to fix them in the DMA 1.1 I really think Apple (and Meta, fwiw) is making a huge mistake if they think they are in position to negociate anything. DMA is here…

Yeah that's why I'm expecting another change. When they tried banning Epic the EU said no, and Apple was forced to move to this point. I expect/hope that the EU comes back with a further "clarification" on Apple's contention that they can gate this to 1,000,000 downloads.

It is funny to see American companies scream "that's not fair" when faced with a functional government.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#716

Post by jijijijij »

judge2020 wrote: post #621
jijijijij wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Apple's goal is to become irrelevant enough to not be subjected to the DMA. I mean, making developers despise you is a brilliant first step towards such an end!

Why is size a question here? If apple is subject now, but then dropped to 1/10th the number of users, could they suddenly no longer be required to adhere to the DMA? Why is the size of the provider suddenly a test to determine if consumer protections are in order?

The DMA, digital markets act, is about fair competition, not consumer protection. If you got 5 users, you do not have the necessary leverage to matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#717

Post by noapologies »

stouset wrote: post #705
bogwog wrote: post #67

> Alternative app marketplaces. Marketplaces can choose to offer a catalog of apps solely from the developer of the marketplace. How does that count as a "marketplace"? > Web Distribution ... will let authorized developers distribute their iOS apps to EU users directly from a website owned by the developer All of this just makes it crystal clear what Apple's goal is: to prevent competition. It's not about security li…

> it's all about maintaining their app store monopoly. Does this only makes sense if you assume payments are tied to the App Store? They aren’t. If you remove payments from your list of motivations, what do you presume Apple’s motivation is to encourage apps to list themselves on the App Store and not a third-party marketplace?

It is much harder to explain to consumers why Apple should get a percentage-based rent (sorry Core Technology Fee that enables Privacy and Security™) if they go to a non-Apple website, download a non-Apple app, to do non-Apple-related things.

Like literally the only participants in that business transaction are the consumer and the company, Apple does not even enter the picture.

It would be like car manufacturers charging you a percentage for going to the grocery store, because they provide a Private and Secure™ transportation platform.

Consumers will soon catch up, and if the EU does not put pressure on Apple about this, they definitely will.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#718

Post by willseth »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #711
willseth wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment cited Web Distribution as evidence that Apple doesn't actually care about safety and security, when in fact Web Distribution is more secured than Marketplace distribution. > The goal was to get out of Apple's clutches when your customers have their devices Whose goal? Read the DMA. It is very explicit that it expects Apple to maintain security of devices and apps.

> The parent comment cited Web Distribution as evidence that Apple doesn't actually care about safety and security, when in fact Web Distribution is more secured than Marketplace distribution. Which goes to the parent's point that their intent is to prevent competition. Otherwise why would the alternative need more onerous security measures, if not to act as a deterrent through friction? > Read the DMA. It is very ex…

The comment literally says "It's not about security like they've been lying about", when the opposite is actually true. They were implying that Web Distribution was a way to get around security of a Marketplace, which is not possible.

Without a kill switch, gatekeepers would lose control over apps, making them "strictly necessary." Most interpretations of the DMA agree.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#719

Post by coldtea »

josephg wrote: post #679
nektro wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

debating about how they run the store is totally valid, but there being only one store absolutely does make iOS safer overall

Having only one website would also make the web safer. But it would also be super lame. Is that a trade you would make? Why would we want freedom to self publish on the web but not in mobile apps?

I'd prefer zero websites, but I'd settle for one.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#720

Post by ryukafalz »

cosmojg wrote: post #509
somat wrote: post #489

The whole app ecosystem(android and apple) is carefully constructed for maximum market owner value extraction, user value is a secondary consideration. Basically, it is what the web would look like if it were developed by corporate interests, conversely "apps" could have been a better designed web[1], but instead are this comparatively clunky gated process where you have to explicitly install the app first only then…

Oh, the tragedy of what could have been: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS

Also MeeGo, which was killed off before it really had a chance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9
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