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Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

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Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The societal norms and structures that promoted natalism are gone in western countries for much of the population. Raising kids is hard work. Ideally you have them young and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. But our society tells people to wait as long as possible to have kids, and to prioritize career over other things - so once people do have kids, if they ever do so, t…

> Raising kids is hard work. It's really not that hard. You just have to change expectations and lifestyle. I never thought of it as "work" per-se but rather an obligation and responsibility to people brought into the world. It's amazing really. It's probably not for everyone and if someone sees it the same way as doing actual work then maybe it isn't for them.

Currently changing diapers and feeding every 3 hours through the night.

It’s work.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#712
I'm an Old (53), and always felt a little weird because I had very little cousin interaction growing up. I mean, I'm from a small, mostly rural state; most people I knew had cousins out the wazoo -- but not me.

I think the real reason is that both my parents were from two-child families, and they were also very much older than their younger siblings; my mom is 7 years older than her brother, and my father was a full decade older than his sister.

Both my Aunt and my Uncle had families, but necessarily later. My aunt went first, and had a daughter about the age of my little sister -- 5 years after me -- and then another daughter a couple years later. However, they lived a couple towns over, and my father and his sister weren't especially close, so we didn't spend much time with them.

My uncle and his wife didn't start their family until I was 17, so obviously there was zero childhood overlap there. I see and talk to those cousins more often than the two from my father's side, mostly because we have more in common, but it's still not very often.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#713

Here in Finland apparently 50% of 35yo males, and 35% of 35yo females have no children. Fertility rate in 2023 was 1.26. In comparison, 2015 saw fertility rate of 1.65, and it has been below replacement level since 1969. 61% of under 40yo people live in rental apartments, this share having risen about 10% from 2010. Also, apartments built today are about 9 square meters smaller on average compares to 10 years ago. I…

Three bedroom or three room?

Even in the crowded Poland, I can't really believe in three bedroom + living room 55 square meter apartament.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It baffles me." It shouldn't. Life is pretty miserable for most people. Everyone is too busy to hang out and be relaxed. Having kids makes it even more so. Why do we want our kis to grow up like that too?

> Life is pretty miserable for most people. this is objectively untrue with respect to almost every single piece of data we have on this subject. Just because youre a misanthrope doesnt mean everyone else is.

I wonder - do you think the drop in fertility represents a rise in overall life satisfaction or a fall? I hadn't thought about it much myself, but it seems like it could go either way.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#715

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

> The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now.

Owning a house isn't a pre-req to have a kid

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#716
We have very good relationship with our neighbor, who's French (this will become relevant later). We met at the playground both babysitting our kids. We know each other well enough to come visit, eat lunch together, go to various children-related activities etc.

About a month ago, when we came to visit our neighbor, she had a guest, whom she introduced as her cousin. Couple days ago, she had another guest, and what do you know: it's another cousin! I asked how many cousins does she have. Her and her cousin started to reminiscent and came up with an estimate of around fifty. My jaw dropped. Then they went down the memory lane, recalling their childhood and how they'd spend summers in the family house: legion of kids with few adults in sight.

My father had two brothers. One had (at least one that I know of) son. The other one had a son and a daughter. No two brothers live in the same country. I've only ever met one of my cousins, once. My mother was the only child.

But this was also the very common situation in my childhood years. Everyone I went to school with barely had any extended family. And once I started to think about what might have caused the difference: well, these things come to mind: my maternal grandmother had 11 siblings. One or two died in the war. A better half escaped the Communist regime. Those who didn't were sentenced to exile in Siberia. She and her sister were what's left of the family. That sister never married and had no children.

Similar, on my father's side, a bunch of relatives died in Holocaust. And even later on, through the Soviet times, the situation wasn't conducive to having many children. My parents, already, grew up in the world where cousins were rare.

It looks though like in some places in Europe, the war didn't affect the siblings situation so much, and even my generation had a chance to meet a bunch of cousins. The US seems to be similar in this respect, at least according to my wife's testimony, who would every now and then mention he cousin who is an architect / drug addict / screwed up by 'Nam / fashion model etc. There seems to be no shortage of cousins to draw on.

Our kid, in total, has three cousins. And there's unlikely to be more. Which is a new thing for the Western world, I guess, especially the parts not so much affected by the war. But this is how things have been for at least a generation in the East.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those. Very shy even into my late 20s. Then my Dad got sick so I was his support for nearly 20 years. Life went by and now it's too late to have kids. No woman of child bearing age wants to date a middle-aged man 10 years her senior. So really why bother even trying to have a relationship at this point?

Plenty of women wants to date a guy 10, 20 or even 30 years her senior. Especially if he's financially secure, wants a stable relationship, is reasonably healthy and treats her well. If you have your life in order, all you have to do is to look in the right places. Those places exist in any country, but if you're a man like that and look on dating sites for Thailand or the Philippines, you will find 10 women that wan…

Not to give OP fuel for his fire, but just to be real because I am so sick of seeing these misleading comments all over the internet:

It's not just finding a woman who is willing. It's finding a woman who is a quality person that you have an attraction to that is willing.

When you are a woman who is sane, smart, have your life together, and is decent looking, you have many choices for a partner. Many of these woman can easily find high quality men who are their own age and have the same life situation.

So while yes, it does happen that the 50 yr old guy meets the amazing 33 yr old woman. Far more often than not, the amazing 33 yr old woman meets to amazing 33 yr old guy.

Unless you are down with divorced w/kids. Then it gets much easier. But you will be second to her kids.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, this strikes me as a very novel argument in favor of religion, and is more convincing to me than most others. I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with lar…

> I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? Kinda. We were open to believing in God. But the start of our journey was just realizing the secular world had nothing to offer us. Then we met a religious homeschooling family w/ 5 kids and they gave us a glimpse of what was possible. So we star…

That’s awesome. I have good news and bad news — my family is extremely Christian, we were missionaries to Turkey for ten years, I’ve converted people, etc. It is a very close community, and I do think the community aspect will just keep getting better for you. At the same time, different people will feel differently about what truth is. I’m agnostic now, because I feel like I would be lying to my family if I said I still believe it all. The mismatch in belief does cause some stress sometimes, even though it’s still mostly a sweet community that I love to have in my life. Your kids might feel the same in 20 years. I’m sure they’ll still love you dearly anyways, just be sure that your pastor/church/community will still accept them as well, if they do walk away from the faith.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#719
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same in Sweden. My friends and I are all a couple of years passed the age our parents were when they had us. Out of 7 people who have SO's in my social circle, 0 have children. Why? Because they simply don't have the room. The housing market in Stockholm is insane, and even though most earn above average (most are in tech) they can only afford tiny 1BR apartments. Trying to raise a kid in such a place would…

What I don't understand is that native people who make a good income rationalize that they can't afford kids but yet in the same country there are many non-native people that earn considerably less that continue have children at extremely high birthrates. So why does the group that earns a lot of money claim they are incapable of supporting a family and the group that earns very little actually support a large family…

Maybe the non-native people that earn less see their future brighter, whereas the native group with good income sees their future darker.

When you come from nothing its easier to give your kids a better future than you had.

Some animals don't breed in captivity. Some human populations also didn't breed because they were in captivity. Even though people have it better number wise, it's still possible to feel trapped.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild that, not too long ago, you could afford a house and a car on a single income as a mailman. That is unthinkable today. We understand there are ways to be successful, but it's like that saying: anyone can be successful, but everyone can't. I know a lot of people who spend their money on experiences because they genuinely believe they won't get a retirement, so they might as well enjoy their life while they c…

In 1950 you could afford a car and house on one income - but that house as much smaller than the typical house today. You also had one car not two, your wife (this was sexist times - men worked, women stayed home) probably didn't even have a drivers license. If she did she couldn't drive anywhere when you were at work unless she drove you to work. (thus door to door salesmen: sell things those housewives need but can…

"your wife (this was sexist times - men worked, women stayed home) probably didn't even have a drivers license"

According to a internet search it seems about half of women had driver's licenses. So this is not accurate. Anecdotal, but I just skimmed The Donna Reed show episode descriptions and a 1961 episode has her fighting a parking ticket, another 1961 episode has her daughter learning to drive.

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