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Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

cointelegraph.com

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Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#711

Post by rfoo »

tsimionescu wrote: post #601
roenxi wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The possibility of change exists, but one of the hardest promises Bitcoin makes is that you can't change the rules mid-game like what happened with stocks. That is one of the most attractive things about this asset class - if the US regulators want to change how a crypto is traded ... tough biscuits. They have to convince the market participants, globally, to trade the new way. The bar might be orders of magnitude hi…

Aren't the vast majority of market participants already operating outside the blockchain, relying on exchanges and sometimes on so-called "L2" networks like Lightning? I think the majority of Bitcoin and Ethereum proponents are already talking about them as "digital gold" instead of digital currency. The mining pools have also blocked any attempt to make the Bitcoin blockchain more efficient at transactions (by keepi…

> So overall it seems quite easy to force the matter and implement KYC and AML for msot legal Bitcoin transactions.

At that point people would seriously have more interest in the so-called "L1 scaling solutions" which mining pools blocked. And mining blocks can't block such things anymore given that there is enough interest.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#712

Post by lucw »

cmcaleer wrote: post #549
lucw wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they diverge, an arbitrage opportunity will appear which market participants will jump on.

A trade like this (partly) is what blew up 3AC. Borrowing has cost and if futures funding premium turns against you and your perceived arb, along with a further divergence against you, it’s game over. Funnily enough that GBTC gap basically closed today; it was a >30% discount when 3AC died. Very nice if you get paid to hedge! Not so nice when you’re paying 0.1% in hourly funding premium.

I'm not familiar with what happened at 3AC but it sounds like there was leverage involved. The arb opportunity i'm talking about is something that exists with all ETFs and keeps them in line with the underlying asset.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#713

Post by npoc »

RandomLensman wrote: post #702
npoc wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does it means that a society "wins"? It grows stronger/more efficient compared to others. > Gold isn't money - it's a commodity. It isn't even a great store of value over that last thousand years or so. I don't want to argue semantics, but yes gold certainly isn't great at storing value - its supply doubles every 40 years and over the last 100+ years has been slowly demonetised as economic value moved into fia…

"Stronger" is tricky to measure. "Efficient" is bit better to measure. The introduction of standardized (and "policed") coins certainly opened up commerce a few thousand years back, but in the end it did not stop the Romans from taking over the Greek world, for example. There is a lot more to societies than money. Can you do huge damage to societies from hyperinflation - for sure, but outside of catastrophic failures…

> The introduction of standardized (and "policed") coins certainly opened up commerce a few thousand years back, but in the end it did not stop the Romans from taking over the Greek world, for example.

Yes I'm assuming all else equal or when studied over a long period of time. Nowadays we can use our knowledge and intelligence to simply start using better money in advance.

> Can you do huge damage to societies from hyperinflation - for sure, but outside of catastrophic failures of money, not so sure there is a strong link.

I don't think you appreciate the damage that has already been caused by fiat. Look at USA, the UK and compare them to just 50 years ago. We think we are rich but it's just an illusion caused by devalued money. An average man used to be able to own a home, and support a wife and kids on his salary. Those days are long gone. The bankers are unjustly getting more and more powerful (far more powerful than the governments) while the people are becoming weaker and weaker.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#714

Post by ur-whale »

TrackerFF wrote: post #658
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #526

I can't help thinking that Bitcoin ETFs could mark "Peak Bitcoin". When lots of people are trading it at their high street broker in their regular account, Bitcoin becomes just a number in a box - a crypto currency without crypto - with nothing underlying it.

There is no underlying value. No intrinsic value. The value is purely a function of speculative demand. And while previously people anticipated the demand would go up "organically" because of actual real-world usage, you know to pay for stuff and such, that hasn't really materialized in the way we hoped. How many actually use BTC for things like that? At its BEST it has usage to purchase other coins - but that's abou…

> No intrinsic value

The rest of your long rant is basically useless, because the last 2 words above have strictly no meaning when put together

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#715

Post by Nursie »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #674
Nursie wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the US regulators want to change how a crypto is traded ... tough biscuits They can happily regulate on and off ramps, and enforce traceability etc for anything that touches the 'real' economy though, should they wish.

> They can happily regulate on and off ramps, and enforce traceability etc for anything that touches the 'real' economy though, should they wish. But what good is that? All you get is traceability for people with nothing to hide. You can't actually prevent on and off ramps because anybody could go to the black market digital currency dealer (whose operations are conveniently situated near the local drug dealer) and e…

That Bitcoin becomes un-resellable as it has gone through un-sanctioned addresses.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#716

Post by davedx »

npoc wrote: post #678
TrackerFF wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no underlying value. No intrinsic value. The value is purely a function of speculative demand. And while previously people anticipated the demand would go up "organically" because of actual real-world usage, you know to pay for stuff and such, that hasn't really materialized in the way we hoped. How many actually use BTC for things like that? At its BEST it has usage to purchase other coins - but that's abou…

The IRL usage is as a savings account. As more people understand its fundamental qualities (or even just see number go up) and save their wealth in it, it's value will become less volatile and it will become more useful as a unit of account and day-to-day medium of exchange. It will be >$10M/BTC before that'll start to happen though.

That might have been interesting during ZIRP but these days many people have very non-zero interest on their savings account. If you hold Bitcoin its value may well go down not up. It's more like holding penny stocks than a saving account.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#717

Post by npoc »

TrackerFF wrote: post #704
npoc wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IRL usage is as a savings account. As more people understand its fundamental qualities (or even just see number go up) and save their wealth in it, it's value will become less volatile and it will become more useful as a unit of account and day-to-day medium of exchange. It will be >$10M/BTC before that'll start to happen though.

If we're going to look at it from a fundamental perspective - what drives people to purchase BTC? I don't know about you, but close to 100% of everyone I know that have bought BTC (and other coins, for that matter) the past 5-10 years have done it in hopes of it going to the moon. The bitcoin maxis are at this point a fringe movement, a distant past, really. If you put all your savings on index funds, there is some p…

I have all my savings stored in bitcoin. I do it because I've spent 100s of hours learning what money really is and can see that bitcoin is the best form of it, certainly the best long term store of value. I also know that the best long term store of value will ultimately be where the world's stored value is moved to.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#718

Post by diggan »

Devasta wrote: post #709
tiku wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Supply and demand. If there is demand then it's fine. If there isn't any thats ok as well.

Its climate arson.

Aren't there oil ETFs or other types of ETFs that have a much higher negative impact on the environment?

Any sort of currency seems to bring out the worst, maybe currencies in general is the problem?

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#719

Post by ur-whale »

johnyzee wrote: post #586
miohtama wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is described in the every prospectus that was approved today. Prospectuses are public.

Can you quote the relevant parts then, since you have apparently read all the prospectuses? I am wondering the same thing. Will they publish the custody addresses?

I thought reading long and boring documents and answering questions about them was what ChatGPT was for, no ?

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#720

Post by xiphias2 »

tsimionescu wrote: post #601
roenxi wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The possibility of change exists, but one of the hardest promises Bitcoin makes is that you can't change the rules mid-game like what happened with stocks. That is one of the most attractive things about this asset class - if the US regulators want to change how a crypto is traded ... tough biscuits. They have to convince the market participants, globally, to trade the new way. The bar might be orders of magnitude hi…

Aren't the vast majority of market participants already operating outside the blockchain, relying on exchanges and sometimes on so-called "L2" networks like Lightning? I think the majority of Bitcoin and Ethereum proponents are already talking about them as "digital gold" instead of digital currency. The mining pools have also blocked any attempt to make the Bitcoin blockchain more efficient at transactions (by keepi…

While you're right that Lightning L2 transactions generally aren't published on the blockchain, while following the lightning protocol, real Bitcoin transactions are passed between network participants that can be published by any of the participants if another other party doesn't follow the lightning channel rules.
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