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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#711

Post by AtlasBarfed »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #702
ido wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, Dang. As someone on the Israeli left I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place- I do not condone Netanyahu and his government and am indeed very critical of Israeli governments of the past decades. But on the other side, my 78 year old mother is fleeing to shelter every couple hours as my hometown (not anywhere near the west bank or the Gaza strip) gets hit by rockets, as do my young nieces and nephe…

A thorough, and thoroughly depressing, analysis of Netanyahu and his thinking: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/21/the-netanyahu-... Of particular note, and to your point: > Netanyahu is not a conventional ideologue. His opposition to a two-state solution does not derive from any messianic conviction or biblical inspiration. While many of his supporters are religious traditionalists, he is staunchly secular…

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#712

Post by ignoramous »

ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

> Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want.

Plenty Palestinians oppose the war and want peace. This is the equivalent.

In their eyes, to rid of kahanists like Netanyahu and his cronies, who have subjugated them for decades, subjected them to a death by a thousand paper-cuts, they don't demand Jordan and Turkey besiege and bomb Tel Aviv.

Given the population density in the Strip and lack of trust in Israel by Egypt on refugees, smaller-scale military solution followed by a political solution must have been pursued but instead the majority sentiment in Israel was all-out revenge (and collective punishment very much okay: https://archive.is/t9pmT). It has been downhill from there.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#713

Post by Georgelemental »

snowpid wrote: post #96
ardit33 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

" I am talking about women/children. " Can you elaborate, what makes especially women special as a victim?

Women (on average) are much less likely to be combatants or pose a threat, are physically more vulnerable, and (as the only people who can bear children) are more important than men for preserving the future of humanity.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#714

Post by nahumfarchi »

monocasa wrote: post #672
nahumfarchi wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a bit of selective reading there. Where you see "'67 borders", I see "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea". River = the Jordan River Sea = the Mediterranean sea => calling for the destruction of Israel. But sure, we'll take '67 as an intermediate step.

> Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. I don't know how to read that except the willingness to compromise on 1967 borders, as long as those ejected in 1948 can r…

What about the Jews who were ejected from neighboring Arab countries during these various wars? Do they get to go back home? Do you truly believe a compromise can be reached with an organization that committed a massacre on the scale of October 7th? Personally, I'm willing to compromise a lot for peace (divide Jerusalem, give up the west bank, whatever. Fighting over land/religion is absurd), but I honestly don't believe that's what Hamas is aiming for. Their actions at least indicate otherwise.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#715

Post by gjs278 »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #83
dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

You usually nuke stories that are political. I'm not being critical, it clearly leads to significant improvement over similar sites. What makes this one different? When I see a headline like this, I usually assume I managed to see it before you did, and if I refresh the page that it will probably disappear. So again, and without accusation, what's different? Bad things happen all over the world, nearly constantly or…

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#716

Post by kossTKR »

Let me know if i’m reading the sources at the bottom wrong.

Israel supported Hamas as a tactic to destroy their neighbours without restraint as classical war strategy called divide and conquer as most history or war nerds know it.

It's unsurprising classical geopolitics as known from academia 25 years ago before 9/11.

This is an important aspect when people support the measures, the 6000+ bombed kids or that palestinians just voted for them with other options.

In reality the Hamas support, blockades, and forced poverty in Gaza were part of a military plan to create desperation, hellish conditions and radicalisation from constant oppression to eventually weaken or annex depending on sources.

This has been known for long internally in the Israeli press, even mentioned in Wall Street Journal and other mainstream media in the past then called "conspiracy", before again surfacing today with the NYT articles.

Examples below with lots of sources:

The New York Times (today): https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q...

Wall Street Journal (2008/2023): https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http:/online.wsj.... https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-gaza-humanitaria...

The Intercept (2018): https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c...

Haaretz (2023): https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-op...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#717

Post by aluminum96 »

nico wrote: post #299
qwerpy wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you put it, it sounds like Israel got up in the morning one day and for reasons no one can understand, decided to start inflicting civilian casualties on Palestinians.

You are correct that there is a history there, but They way you put it, it sounds like Israel wasn’t created by forcefully stealing land from the Palestinian people that were already there

> forcefully stealing land from the Palestinian people

That is incredibly ahistorical, and in my honest opinion, "land theft" allegations are akin to a smear.

The truth about the land's history is, of course, too complicated to fit in a thread.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#718

Post by ashirusnw »

dragonwriter wrote: post #524
rehitman wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement is very uninformed. Isreal left Gaza very logn time ago. They had an election and Hamas came to power, and they never hold an election after. There is no land dispute between Isreal and Gaza (Unlike Westbank where there are serious disputes). The main problem is that Hamas and its supporter Iran consistentnly in word and in practice declared that want to wipe out and destroy Isreal. It is not about som…

> Isreal left Gaza very logn time ago. Israel has not left Gaza. > They had an election and Hamas came to power, and they never hold an election after. Israel has obstructed agreements between the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority and Hamas in Gaza on all-Palestine elections on several occasions since then (the fact that some people who would be voters in such elections live in occupied territory outside of what Israel…

Israel left Gaza, and uprooted its own citizens, in an attempt to follow the 1990s model of gradually letting Palestinians have self determination and seeing if it lead to a corresponding reduction in attacks and planning of Israeli destruction. It proved a disastrous attempt, as Hamas (and Fatah who at that time still committed numerous terrorist attacks too) and lead many Israelis to double down on the belief that Palestinians would never give up on genocide against Israel.

The 100m "kill zone" has been proved necessary beyond doubt now. But if your claim is that total military and settler withdrawal besides 100m near the border for security means that Gaza was still occupied and its people justified in using terrorism, then it just shows the extremes that pro Palestinians will go to justify atrocities and explains why Israelis are tired of giving their implacable enemies the benefit of the doubt.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#719

Post by w7 »

acdha wrote: post #626
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each civilian killed by mistake has family, friends, and neighbors who might be inclined to avenge them and it’s hard for me to see how this doesn’t end up giving Hamas more recruits than they’re losing. I am not so sure about that. I don't recall a bunch of anti-British terrorist Germans out for revenge for Dresden after WWII. Nor have there been a bunch of anti-American terrorist Japanese out for revenge for Hiro…

I addressed the same point in a sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38620617 Basically, I think it comes down to options. After WWII, the average person in Germany or Japan wasn’t forced out of their home and livelihood, and the Marshall plan was quite effective at giving people peaceful options to be proud of. What I’m not seeing now is how Palestinians get something similar, and if you push people…

What do we consider "forced out of their home and livelihood".

Allied bombing of Japan in WWII destroyed upwards of 3.4 million homes and rendered the areas unlivable for a period of time.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#720

Post by Der_Einzige »

jgeada wrote: post #98
ycdxvjp wrote: post #31

The only take that made any sense to me about what's going on there - https://michael-hudson.com/2023/11/israel-as-a-landed-aircra...

Name a conflict or intervention by the US in that region that has made use of US assets based in Israel. Hint: there aren't any. We instead use assets in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, etc. Using anything based in Israel would cause more problems than would be solved. Israel isn't really an asset to the US, it is more of a liability that we tolerate.

Bullshit. Isreal has the urban warfare training school where US soldiers, especially spec ops, train in a 1-1 replica of a city. It’s literally one of the most important military training installations in the entire world and you bet your ass that American troops training there are “US assets based in isreal”

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-03-14/ty-article-ma...

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