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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

711–720 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#711
post #689
post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Why must we re-analyze her problem and say it is something else when she has already clearly stated what it is and how she feels. Seeing the grandparent as the top voted comment is like HN saying 'hey, we know better, your problem is actually this'. Which isn't much different from saying 'lighten up' - both amount to dismissing her feelings.

Then why discuss her article at all? She has made up her mind and quit, and that is all there is to it?

One thing would be to discuss, as a startup owner, how would one prevent this kind of thing happening in their startup. How to create a culture where women aren't treated like that so that highly talented women are more likely to join and stay. Or is this something that we shouldn't hope to achieve because nerds will always be like that?

Judging by other comments here (and recent sexism issues in tech), it seems like her treatment isn't an isolated case.

Re: "Lighten up"

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? So, I'm not going to agree or disagree with you, since I don't really know exactly what you're saying. I will say this, though: there is professional attire for women. Generally speaking, this doesn't involve form-hugging clothing. A fitted women's dress shirt is not form-hugging, by the way. Personally, I recognize that I…

> Personally, I recognize that I have an unfortunate automatic physiological response to breasts. You've been programmed to think this is bad, unhealthy or unnatural by people with an agenda. There's another school of thought that says it's ok, normal, natural, and healthy. Humans are hard-wired for sex and we've been having sex like rabbits for millions of years otherwise we wouldn't be here. There are many situatio…

You've been programmed to think this is bad, unhealthy or unnatural by people with an agenda

No I haven't. I don't think it's the least bit bad or unhealthy. I simply want to engage my friend as a friend, not glance at her tits every ten seconds. Performing physical actions that imply attraction would introduce a power balance that I don't want in a friendship.

Re: "Lighten up"

#713
post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

Well, I guess I ought to weigh in on this one, since I am the interviewee in question. First, the story. During the interview, I was interrupted while answering a question with, "I think I have a tick." My brain immediately thinks, "He's on eBay and has just won a copy of The Tick." But then he swivels the monitor around to show me a flesh-colored rectangle with a round, red area in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure…

Here's me and my wife disagreeing.

Which is fine. Our daughter will learn how to toughen up and roll with the punches from Erin, and to not take any of this shit from me, and hopefully synthesize that into the CEOship of some galactically huge company from which she will fund our retirement.

Re: "Lighten up"

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess I ought to weigh in on this one, since I am the interviewee in question. First, the story. During the interview, I was interrupted while answering a question with, "I think I have a tick." My brain immediately thinks, "He's on eBay and has just won a copy of The Tick." But then he swivels the monitor around to show me a flesh-colored rectangle with a round, red area in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure…

Here's me and my wife disagreeing. Which is fine. Our daughter will learn how to toughen up and roll with the punches from Erin, and to not take any of this shit from me, and hopefully synthesize that into the CEOship of some galactically huge company from which she will fund our retirement.

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#715

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

I have sympathy for the outcast with poor social skills because of mistreatment by society.

But such an outcast ceases to be sympathetic the instant s/he makes someone else's life unpleasant. This isn't about "man hate"; this is about someone who made an offensive comment that made someone else uncomfortable. That's not OK, and we reasonably expect better socialization in our peers than this. If the person who made this remark is not a "happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being", then no matter how much compassion his condition might reasonably engender, he should get help.

Furthermore, by equating a lack of compassion for a man who is "not healthy" with "man hate", you implicitly claim that "men are naturally unhealthy". To me, this comes across as a greater denigration of men than any harsh reaction leveled at the oppressor.

Re: "Lighten up"

#716
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Depending on your proportions, some necklines might work better for movement or fit. Like, high necklines on a rectangular t-shirt, if you're well-endowed, have a tendency to creep up and get all chokey. Scoop necks do a better job of this. Some people might consider scoop neck to be "low cut" (because the collar bones are visible--something generally not accepted/expected of men) while others might not call somethin…

Thank you for pointing out the nuances of female tops commonly available today and how they look on different body shapes.

With regard to button-up shirts, tailoring is a much bigger problem for women's shirt than men's shirt. Ready-made men's shirts are measured in collar size in 1/2" increments and sleeve length in 2" increments. This allow for much better fit, as men's shoulder and chest measurements tend to correlate with these two numbers.

For women's shirts, you're at the whim of the mythical "sizes" running usually in increments of 2 from 0 to 14 (larger if you're at the "plus" section). Each size up is usually scaled up at all measurements: chest, shoulder, waist, collar, shirt length and sleeve length.

In other words, even though there's a much wider variety in women's body shapes than in men's, men's shirts' come in much finer increments in terms of sizing.

In addition to the problems you've describe, I have a few more gripes regarding button-up shirts:

There's the problem of large gaps opening up in between buttons for the well-endowed, thus offering others glimpses of your undergarment (read: bra). Opting for a larger size would make the shirt too loose ("not fit") at the shoulders.

Another common problem with button-up shirts for women is, they tend to run much shorter than men's shirts, as they are intended to be worn not tugged in. Depending on body shape and the cut of the bottom garment, certain movements (such as raising the entire arm) may expose skin along and possible above the waistline.

Unfortunately, button-up shirts are part of the de facto business casual attire. Depending on the physical environment, adding a vest, cardigan, or jacket for cover-up may not be suitable or desirable. (Female jackets tend to hang above the hip bones anyway, so they're not offering much help in the regard of protecting skin from being exposed.)

In other words, no, I don't want to expose my skin or cleavage in the office, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

Re: "Lighten up"

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting quite a bit of flak for this. You got a sucky boss? I rather like my co-workers, and potlucks are just one method of team-building/friendship making that can be had at work. No, work buddies should never be your only friends, but to have a pleasant time around co-workers, and to have team-building events such as those? There's nothing wrong with that; and, I would argue it helps to create a condusive a…

Nothing wrong with a less frition-filled work environment. But it should not be mandatory. Also real friction caused by workplace politics rarely reduces due to such events.

Are there statistics on if its less likely to happen in the first place?

Re: "Lighten up"

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the backup. People around here tend not to realize that sharing something like this leaves you feeling pretty darn vulnerable.

I agree with what you said and respect the vulnerable position you have put yourself in. No matter where you say what you just said it may be construed as sexist by some people. There is some axis of reactionary behaviours, with "passive-aggressiveness / indirectness" on the left, and "meanness / directness" on the right, and in general women are further to the left and men are further to the right. Anyway, I wrote a…

Absolutely spot on and I really love that you took this and ran with it. I couldn't have thought of a greater compliment!

The only minor quip is that it feels slightly odd to be called a beta when I felt closer to being the alpha-female, but I agree that it works for the purpose of the story. Probably just my pride talking ;)

Re: "Lighten up"

#719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

As a man, I've handled this by being the one to turn it into an obvious sexist thing by making a joke aloud "yeah, Sarah, boss says it's your turn to take notes again because, you know, you're the only girl at the table :P. Ha ha ha ha." Everyone laughs, boss realizes what he's doing, Sarah is off the hook.

And I, in turn, would blurt out, "yeah, Sarah's a girl because she doesn't menstruate. Hahaha" and everyone would grow more uncomfortable.

Edit: it's really sad that HN has such a devotion to using the word "girl" to describe women. It's flat-out demeaning, whether you want to admit it or not.

Re: "Lighten up"

#720
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood this question. "Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention?" Women wear low cut dresses because they feel good in them, because they feel they look good in them. Showing off your breasts, if you consider them an attractive part of you, is like showing off your face, or arms, or legs. This question is like asking, "Why do women brush their hair, if not to attract male atte…

Actually, women always get dressed with men in mind; it's just that it's so ingrained, they don't really think about it. Their concept of "looking good" is shaped by magazines and tv shows (still much more so that men, on average); and if you look at your average magazine, you'll see oozes of sex emanating from advertising and content. The concept of "looking good" in western society is equivalent to "looking sexy/de…

Not true. We get dressed with other women in mind. We also shop off each other's bodies and generally take fashion cues from each other. This is why women in the Loop are wearing short skirts and strappy sandals and women in the far west suburbs wear print turtlenecks from Land's End.
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