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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#711

Post by andrewprock »

Hackbraten wrote: post #627
bjornsing wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart broke. I wept because of the cruelty. But I also wept because I helped create the system that could do this to someone." I’m a bit hesitant to say this out loud, but… you can only cry over this “betrayal”, “mistreatment” and “cruelty” if you have lived a very protected life.

> you can only cry over this “betrayal”, “mistreatment” and “cruelty” if you have lived a very protected life. For some people, crying is just a way to deal with emotions. So please don’t judge. I’ve been a professional software developer for more than 20 years. I still find myself weeping at work once in a while, especially when overwhelmed with hardship and negative feelings. I don’t see how this would be a sign of…

If your workplace is regularly bringing you to tears, you should start looking for a new position. No one needs a job with that level of emotional overhead.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#712

Post by zamalek »

kibwen wrote: post #273
zamalek wrote: post #74

Is this the same group who conjured up that _top-notch_ trademark policy? If so, how would the community go about removing them?

> Is this the same group who conjured up that _top-notch_ trademark policy? No, which is mentioned in the blog post that caused the OP's resignation: "As the Rust Foundation had trouble with its trademark rollout and the Rust Project presented itself as the capable group that can do the right thing, I find myself in the opposite situation here. The Rust Foundation has handled the grant work with utmost grace, respect…

It's almost worse that it's not The Foundation again. Now there's really no redeeming parts of Rust leadership.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#713

Post by toofy »

spangry wrote: post #658
spaetzleesser wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any communities that are really based on merit?

Pretty much every human community has to be to some extent, with the exception of communities that face no external competition. Non-meritorious communities subject to competition quickly disappear.

“…to some extent…” is, i think, the most important piece of your reply.

sure, merit plays some kind of role, but so do many other things. what so many comments in this discussion (and every other discussion surrounding this issue over and over and over again ad nauseum) really seem to want to ignore is the many other factors that play into long term group/project success.

merit alone? hardly ever, if ever.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#714

Post by kortex »

Georgelemental wrote: post #691
kortex wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complex but the reductionist explanation is that it is in part due to the euphemism treadmill, and in part etymological origin. "Colored" comes from the era of segregation, while "people of color" comes after. But don't get too comfortable, as "people of color" will probably phase out soon as well. My money is first on "BIPOC" (as an initialism, usually sounding out the letters), giving way to "bipoc" (as an acr…

> But afaik, no one has proffered an adequate word to describe "folks that have too much melanin to be considered white". Such a word is not necessary or desirable, because the categorization system it supports is not meaningful or useful.

Of course it's necessary and desirable. The "categorization system" in question already exists, whether it ought to or not. Bipoc have a more difficult socioeconomic situation, because of their skin color. Should "LGBTQ+" as a category not exist, because they are people just like straight people?

It is useful and meaningful to talk about the plight and state of, and advocate for, "Group XYZ that has been marginalized and experienced systemic violence throughout history, specifically because they are XYZ"

Re: Why I Left Rust

#715

Post by conradev »

xyzzyz wrote: post #484
fatneckbeard wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I worry about this. There was no "C leadership", it was simple enough that dozens of people created their own compilers within a few years of C existing. this was back before the internet. they had companies sprouting up like Borland just making C compilers for personal home computers. C just ... spread. All these kids learning Arduino in school, they are learning C. There basically is no other usable compiler t…

Rust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction. It couldn’t have made much progress by taking similar hands off approach as C, because C is already more than good enough C.

These things can be true simultaneously. The Rust team can have extremely strong technical leadership and direction while also being incredibly immature when it comes to conflict resolution.

Conflict resolution is hard! I struggle with it as an engineer who wants to please everyone, but I also recognize that it isn't possible to.

Whoever had objections to the talk and was not able to express those objections to their teammates in the proper forum before taking action without their approval is just... immature. It violated trust amongst the Rust leadership team, and trust is everything.

It’s actually even worse, because this person also wielded enough power to represent Rust to RustConf, and did so incorrectly. They seem problematic.

Leading people is always messy and requires the maturity to deal with failures gracefully, and a catastrophic failure from a simple task is not confidence-inspiring. I love Rust, so I hope they get their shit together.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#716

Post by ilyt »

raziel2p wrote: post #548
ilyt wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably the worst way possible to handle it, worse than just leaving people to have their petty disagreements in the thread.

Why? If it's petty it is by definition unimportant, so it can only cause damage by scaring people away or reinforcing an idea of a toxic community.

...vs idea of uncaring mods that don't want to do the job they signed for so they will just stifle conversation on topics that get too hot ?

Those threads don't happen everyday either

Re: Why I Left Rust

#717

Post by DocSavage »

pie_flavor wrote: post #213

This is certainly strangely phrased. The version I got from another member was that the content of the talk was to be about a proposed feature that may not actually end up in Rust (in my view it likely would not), and having that be the keynote talk would imply to a lot of people that it would end up in Rust and put the language in an uncomfortable position where something other than the feature's merit would be push…

Agree. They should’ve allowed for more discussion before sending invitations and more effort should've been made to come to a mutually beneficial solution. But going from an invited keynote (great honor) to an invited talk (honor) is not what I would call a deliberate attempt to "disgrace one of the experts in my field." It’s a single track conference where the speaker would be heard by all attendees and could’ve championed his ideas to the larger Rust community.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#718

Post by fwungy »

depr wrote: post #387
Roark66 wrote: post #294

I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…

He is saying there weren't any black speakers. Sure we can say how that should grow "organically", as some other poster did. But what if year in year out it doesn't happen? Maybe there aren't any black people in the Rust community and if they stepped forward with some good talks they would just be invited? Or maybe the situation is a little more complicated. On the one hand you have your "diversity enforcement policy…

How many of ethnicity are in the community?

What is the average level of commitment and capability of in the overall community?

If that is low relative to the community distribution members of may not feel comfortable seeking speaker slots simply because they understand their relative ranking and do not want to potentially disrespect the group or humiliate themselves.

This is completely normal behavior for all . Even in large subgroup most people do not consider themselves worthy of speaking at top conferences.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#719

Post by tanepiper »

indy wrote: post #88
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

It is absolutely having an impact on the outside. I'm currently putting together the architecture of our new Content Delivery platform, and considering different parts of the stack. The look from the outside is of a project who recently has been making very bad decisions from leadership - it makes me consider what to get our team to upskill in, or to hire on, as we move away from "everything in JS".

A Go stack is looking quite achievable.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#720

Post by unixhero »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #363
unixhero wrote: post #212

I see. The proposed keynote made it about identity politics. I am going to side with the Rust Board on this one. To me this was a great and necessary decision.

No it didn’t, what are you talking about? It was a strictly technical keynote

Thank you for reaching out. This is what I am talking about:

> "It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers."

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