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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#711

Post by toss1 »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I've lived in the city, in the suburbs, and in the country.

Absolutely no question, living in the city (in this case, Manhattan/NYC), a car is a liability. Parking was either insanely expensive or a game of musical chairs 2X per week as the no parking times for the streetsweepers come up (and that was decades ago).

But anywhere else, the car is basically a necessity. Doesn't have to be fancy, but it does have to be. I keep looking at electric motorcycles/scooters for a relatively short commute, but not keen on the hazards (and I'm not risk averse; I've had sportscar racing licenses & experience, rock climbing, etc., but when surgeons I know call motorcycles "donor-cycles", I take the hint).

What is sad is that only rarely is driving fun anymore. A long drive in the country on a nice day was a real joy, but there's just too much traffic now...

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#712

Post by lotsoweiners »

JohnFen wrote: post #685
tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

> Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Public transport sucks in the US, but that's just because the US has a weird hostility towards it, so doesn't properly invest in it. There's nothing about it that makes it have to suck.

We’re not hostile to it and we have good or at least adequate public transit in a lot of major cities. We just don’t need it everywhere. I live in a very suburban town and can’t imagine that many people would really want to take it. My town skews heavily Mormon (large families) and elderly. That is not going to get much ridership yet some people still keep proposing light rail extension to my town.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#713

Post by saltcured »

intrasight wrote: post #401
taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

As a "Generation X" near the Boomer boundary, I just can't stop being shocked by "average car is $47k". When I was a teen, my parents did rental investing, owned about a dozen properties, and had never paid more than $30k for a property. I'm a well-compensated tech worker, and have no shame in driving my 2004 Volvo that I bought used 16 years ago. Had a second car for a while. A 2005 Camry that I bought for $5000 in…

I don't disagree that young folks can harm their finances by spending gratuitously on cars.

But, I see it differently as far as long-term trends. I'm actually surprised at how stable new car prices have been, while the quality and capabilities have been expanded. Let's consider two benchmarks, because these are ones I've thought about before. I'll consider a two decade period from late 1990s to late 2010s, so also ignoring the recent pandemic market distortions.

One is a practical economy car, e.g. Toyota. The other is an entry-level, all-wheel-drive luxury/sports sedan, e.g. Audi.

A 1997 Corolla at $14k compared to a 2017 Corolla at $18k (28% increase).

A 1997 A4 at $28k compared to a 2017 A4 at $38k (35% increase).

But, this ignores that the newer cars were up-classed and almost competed with their larger sibling models from twenty years before. The 2017 Corolla and A4 were nearly as big and well equipped as the 1997 Camry and A6, respectively. To try to stay at more similar size, power, and features, consider a lower model class for the later time period.

A 1997 Corolla at $14k compared to a 2017 Yaris at $16k (14% increase).

A 1997 A4 at $28k compared to a 2017 A3 at $32k (14% increase).

During the same time period, other living expenses like housing, health insurance, and energy pretty much doubled for me in California. The median US household income also grew from $37k to $60k (62% increase) in this same time frame. So, I see the new car market as having significantly "beat inflation" in a practical sense.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#714

Post by [deleted] »

HardlyCurious wrote: post #695
toshredsyousay wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you got an electric bike, that could help with the sweat. The breeze with the extra speed and the reduction in effort really reduce the amount of sweat dramatically. Or just bring a change of clothes and maybe a towel if that is tolerable. For the rain, a bike poncho works pretty well, especially if you pair it with rubber boots (maybe have a change of shoes ready). For the cold, gloves or bar mitts work pretty we…

Yes, there are solutions or work arounds for these issues. It just makes commuting on a bike inconvenient for many people. Electric bikes are great, but other than price, it starts to blur between having an electric motorcycle. Especially after you need to don appropriate gear for the commute to stay dry / comfortable. And the motorcycle would have greater range and more use cases. And at the end of the day, while ri…

[deleted]

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#715

Post by Retric »

HardlyCurious wrote: post #695
toshredsyousay wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you got an electric bike, that could help with the sweat. The breeze with the extra speed and the reduction in effort really reduce the amount of sweat dramatically. Or just bring a change of clothes and maybe a towel if that is tolerable. For the rain, a bike poncho works pretty well, especially if you pair it with rubber boots (maybe have a change of shoes ready). For the cold, gloves or bar mitts work pretty we…

Yes, there are solutions or work arounds for these issues. It just makes commuting on a bike inconvenient for many people. Electric bikes are great, but other than price, it starts to blur between having an electric motorcycle. Especially after you need to don appropriate gear for the commute to stay dry / comfortable. And the motorcycle would have greater range and more use cases. And at the end of the day, while ri…

Bike specific trails make a huge difference here. An electric motorcycle is less flexible, costs more, and doesn’t provide exercise. Pedal assist going in + a workout on the way back is hard to beat.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#716

Post by lotsoweiners »

mcdonje wrote: post #630
tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

>unless you live in a large city Most people live in large cities

Sure but most large cities aren’t just urban areas. Dallas, Houston, Denver, Phoenix etc are all large cities that you could live in and never have any reason to be near a high rise building.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#717

Post by notch898a »

lp0_on_fire wrote: post #697
lesuorac wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of the remaining accidents are caused by high-speed riding. In my own experience, I've had normal encounters that were I driving a car would have resulted in an accident, but by riding a motorcycle I have the ability to easily maneuver to avoid the accident. To make sure this isn't downplayed. Having riden a motorcycle for years, many car drivers _do_ _not_ _see_ _you_. That car that just pulled out in front o…

Many people think that "because I'm on a motorcycle" or "because I'm on a bike" or "because I'm a pedestrian" they're magically granted some special protection from morons on the road and the laws of physics. Sure, "the law" says you might have the "right of way" but does that really matter when some idiot in a 2 ton truck runs you over because he was looking at his phone? I was a rider until I got in an accident (in…

If you remove hooligans, drunks, new riders, and new-to-that-bike riders, motorcycle accidents states look probably an order of magnitude better.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#718

Post by TchoBeer »

lotsoweiners wrote: post #707
pavlov wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving is not like being at home because it requires active focus and continuous observation of an evolving social situation where other people’s decisions could cost lives. If sitting on a train is like being in a hostel, then driving is like doing tedious office work in a cubicle. I’d rather hang out at the hostel.

Maybe for you but not for everyone. I’ve been driving for almost 30 years, consistently speed well above the speed limit, text and drive, and probably all of the other no nos that some people preach. Still never been in an accident or been pulled over and I pretty much am zoned out whenever I drive.

this is concerning. Please do not text and drive.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#719

Post by gadders »

juve1996 wrote: post #298
gadders wrote: post #94

Young people in towns are going to be filling up the comments about how they don't need a car. Trying living somewhere rural without a car.

This is the 50th time someone said this on here. It can be said without being said. Yea, try living somewhere rural without a large number of things. The fact is, most people don't, and the fact is, most of the market for everything is in cities and their satellite suburbs.

I don't know how to break this to you, but you can write software from pretty much anywhere. You don't need to be living in a polluted city. You can live in the country with your family and raise chickens and walk your dog across fields in your lunch break.

Uber Eats might not reach that far, but you learn to cope.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#720

Post by iso1631 »

rpastuszak wrote: post #653
iso1631 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not at all true in the industrialized world. Gibraltar is maybe one place you might not need a car, it's a tiny country with a bus reaching everywhere. Yet there are 1444 cars per 1000 people. If you look at cars/1000 people though the US is top with 890 sure, but New Zealand, Canada, Finland, Austrailia, Poland, Italy are all above 750. France, Germany, UK, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Japan are all above 600…

> _in most cases_ I'm in my mid 30s, lived in 5 different countries (incl. UK, Austria, Poland, Portugal) and use a car perhaps 4 times per month (cab, when I'm feeling lazy). Again, I put the emphasis there for a reason: I'm not saying that we don't need cars _at all_. What I'm saying is that we need _much fewer_ cars and there are many people like me. When I need to take a longer trip, I rent a cab. It costs me a f…

You use the word most. But reality is most adults have cars in all those countries. Cars are expensive, if they didn't need one they wouldn't have one.

These include countries with very good public transport. Japan, Switzerland etc.

You are very much in the minority.

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