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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#711

Post by idlewords »

brhsagain wrote: post #701
JKCalhoun wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To answer your question, no, I am utterly unenthusiastic about FSD. When I want to leave the driving to someone else I'll take the train. I suppose I think that's better in the long run, better for society in addition to being better for the planet. I know it's not a popular take.

Okay, but idlewords' comment is one of those things that sounds like it is a clever point when it is actually not. "Ha, the big talker who breaks things is talking big and breaking things again!" All right, so if today's article had been, Tesla gets FSD working, would he instead have been like "wow, this guy ships things that work, maybe I was wrong about him and Mars?" No, it's just gloating, right? We get it, he ha…

I find Musk ridiculous, which is not the same as hating someone. People on this site have historically had trouble with the distinction.

To answer your question, though, my opinion on his Mars project would change completely if it turned out that cave rescue guy actually was a pedo.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#712

Post by cardiffspaceman »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #363
pclmulqdq wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Honda had 2 recalls on it recently: one was a software update and the other was over the fact that a few of the cables on the audio system were slightly too short. This sounds like the same thing other than the fact that I had to pop over to the dealership to do them. Even with the cable replacement, in and out in an hour with a nice lounge to sit in.

If the software update has to be done physically at a dealer location, that's a recall. The scenario in this article is an over-the-air update.

While we're talking about semantics, the auto industry seems to have a thing called "Technical service bulletin" which is a piece of actionable knowledge. If it applies to you, you act on it. You would probably have to go to the shop to get the TSB considered and applied. I don't think it has any regulatory weight, except as an input to deciding if a recall is a good idea.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#713

Post by brhsagain »

idlewords wrote: post #711
brhsagain wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but idlewords' comment is one of those things that sounds like it is a clever point when it is actually not. "Ha, the big talker who breaks things is talking big and breaking things again!" All right, so if today's article had been, Tesla gets FSD working, would he instead have been like "wow, this guy ships things that work, maybe I was wrong about him and Mars?" No, it's just gloating, right? We get it, he ha…

I find Musk ridiculous, which is not the same as hating someone. People on this site have historically had trouble with the distinction. To answer your question, though, my opinion on his Mars project would change completely if it turned out that cave rescue guy actually was a pedo.

I mean, not to get personal or take this on a tangent, but, I am a longtime reader of your tweets and blog, and you seem to have an actual problem of values with him. You clearly have a direction you'd like society to move in and I feel like I've seen you express dismay that this energetic, instrumentally effective guy is out there making the world into something else.

Is that not the case?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#714

Post by futuroptimist »

thomaskcr wrote: post #663
diebeforei485 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.

I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.

To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#715

Post by qup »

bdcravens wrote: post #153
qup wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's weird you can voice an opinion like "I won't use it" and then say it's nice on the highway, as if you've given it enough of a trial there to endorse it when you think otherwise it's going to be killing people.

Pretty sure almost crashing into a solid object seems good enough for giving it a failing score.

I definitely agree, in which case I wouldn't find myself endorsing it for any use. Just because I drove X amount of miles without a problem on the highway doesn't mean it's any less likely to drive into a solid object, why would he recommend it?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#716

Post by qup »

CharlesW wrote: post #144
qup wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's weird you can voice an opinion like "I won't use it" and then say it's nice on the highway, as if you've given it enough of a trial there to endorse it when you think otherwise it's going to be killing people.

How is it weird that FSD might work well on extremely simple, boring stretches of road but fall apart as complexity increases?

Not that weird, it's just weird to recommend it after you've seen it almost kill you. I doubt he's put in the requisite time/miles/effort/observation/whatever to know that it does great on the highway but not elsewhere.

There's solid objects on highways, too.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#717

Post by theluketaylor »

esalman wrote: post #608
alluro2 wrote: post #324

I generally root for Tesla as a former underdog who lit the fire under the asses of stagnating manufacturers, but, seeing videos of FSD in action, I'm fully on the side of people who think that calling it FSD should be considered fraud. Given how much time and data they had so far, and the state it's in, it really makes news like Zoox getting a testing permit for public roads, without any manual controls in the vehic…

Unlike Tesla, Mercedes will take responsibility if level-3 autonomous system is malfunctioning. If I ever get an autonomous vehicle this will be the main deciding factor.

Taking legal liability ought to be the truly defining difference between L2 and higher systems. Anything L2 (including Tesla's horribly named FSD) needs to be clearly labelled as a driver assistance feature. Until the manufacturer takes legal responsibility features should be stuck as assistance and agencies like the FTC should be enforcing the terminology much more carefully.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#718

Post by Sparyjerry »

cardiffspaceman wrote: post #710
dmix wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.

I don't see how calling it a Software Recall will soften the blow for the car's user when the user has to drive it to a place where a device can be plugged in to do the update. With a Recall in the normal sense, isn't there a record that the car has been updated? How is this done if the car is kept fully available to the user?

I had a similar recall with my washing machine. It was literally updated automatically before I even knew a recall existed.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#719

Post by insanitybit »

futuroptimist wrote: post #714
thomaskcr wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.

To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.

Not really. If someone says "Full self driving beta" I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing".

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#720

Post by Sparyjerry »

gxc33 wrote: post #650
dingle_thunk wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recall is just the wrong word for what this is.

'full self driving' is an even more incorrect term, then, if you want to be pedantic. if the car mfg takes zero liability/accountability, then it is zero self-driving. you can, in fact, 'recall' software. this is semantically accurate description of what is happening.

It's a full self driving 'beta' though, it's literally in the name that it isn't final and doesn't have the bugs worked out. You also have to opt in to it.
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