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Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

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711–720 of 833 posts

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think fissions failure is a inability to plan for complete failure scenarios, were society folds in on itself, suppliers are no longer available or power plants are actually fought over. So the inability is not to get the tech going, but to plan for how it can it be usefull in a unravelling world. Already economic downturns corelate with fission problems, as plants are not properly maintained. We have one blowing u…

> I think fissions failure is a inability to plan for complete failure scenarios, were society folds in on itself, suppliers are no longer available or power plants are actually fought over. Are you referring to the need for electricity now at the Ukraine plants? Newer technologies such as NuScale require no external electricity for their cooling. The reaction only occurs if there is water and when all the water evap…

There has been a major back-logging in nuclear equipments investments, so big in fact, that some countries who should by right be netto exporters of energy (france) became importers. Its a valid technology in a theoretical world, that does all the upkeep measures, does actual credible threat analysis.

I have yet to see such a world.

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people use the word "reflexive," they're talking about things like conflating business hype designed to attract publicity and VC capital with a press release for a major scientific paper from NIF. I don't think it's unreasonable for HN to hold itself to an understanding of these things. If you actually want to critically examine evidence then you must necessarily read the paper before posting.

Bodied, and deservedly so. Bringing FTX into a discussion of nuclear fusion to justify skepticism is parody-worthy.

It's an example of latest in many high profile scams. If you think it's parody that's fine, but you cannot deny the public mood is souring on big promises with out big results.

FTX is simply the latest in a series of media empowered EXTREMELY high profile scams. You can easily put a thousand other different high profile companies or claims in there.

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing disappointing in skepticism about the importance or value of this work. 1. It is, purely, bomb research dressed up as civilian activity for funding purposes. Everyone working on it has top-secret clearance. 2. It has no consequence for any civilian project. The target that produced a couple of MJ cost $10M. (2.4 MJ is 3. Extracting useful energy would require capturing hot neutrons in a "blanket", he…

1. The same research that brought us the atomic bomb brought us so much more. Who cares about the motivation of the research? This is such a bad take considering the history of technology evolving out of military development. 2. Again, all technology is expensive in the beginning. Who cares? The important thing here is to climb magnitude by magnitude. NIF climbed many magnitudes in recent history, making it notable.…

"Amazing breakthroughs" have notable consequences. This thing has no prospect of any consequences. It is just one number inching past a second number, the second one of dubious provenance.

You may call it a "milestone" if you like, even though it is a milestone on the way to nowhere. The only reason fusion gets any attention is because megaton bombs worked, and already demonstrated Q>1.

People are building out solar and wind power systems that stand some chance of fending off climate catastrophe, each day pushing fusion, like fission, farther from any prospect of competitiveness.

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#714
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of fissions complexity comes from safety/damage management. Even after years of advancements we hear about some incidents and radioactive leaks every other decade. Fusion is a much safer alternative both in incidents and fallout

Is it? Well I guess it is because we don't have a working fusion power reactor yet so the likelihood of an accident is zero. However, if we did have a fusion reactor it would be producing a lot more radioactive waste than a fission reactor. I definitely wouldn't want to make any broad sweeping statements about something that hasn't been built yet.

I'm a bit at a lost, can you elaborate on how fusion would produce more radioactive waste than fission? We already have a few fusion generators designs so is not a sweeping statement on something totally unknown. AFAIK, the by-product of fusing Tritium/Hydrogen is Helium, which is far from radioactive. I might imagine that some radioactive isotopes might get produced as well, but I can't imagine it being nowhere near as dangerous as spent uranium fuel and contaminated components in fission reactors.

In a case of an accident I would also imagine an explosion from a Fusion Reactor, but the fallout of it would not even close as dramatic as a Fission Reactor leak or explosion

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing disappointing in skepticism about the importance or value of this work. 1. It is, purely, bomb research dressed up as civilian activity for funding purposes. Everyone working on it has top-secret clearance. 2. It has no consequence for any civilian project. The target that produced a couple of MJ cost $10M. (2.4 MJ is 3. Extracting useful energy would require capturing hot neutrons in a "blanket", he…

> 1. It is, purely, bomb research dressed up as civilian activity for funding purposes. Everyone working on it has top-secret clearance. Mostly Agreed: there may be applications such experimental astrophysics, but that's certainly not the main motivation. > 2. It has no consequence for any civilian project. The target that produced a couple of MJ cost $10M. (2.4 MJ is The cost of just about anything new regarding fus…

1. Tritium from CANDU is expensive ad-hoc production. The expense is well-documented.

2. Robots for fuel handling in a JET reactor are as far from robots for fusion plant repair as a Sopwith Camel is from Artemis. All they share is the word "robot".

3. Nobody can suggest any way to separate, every day, a few grams of tritium at PPB concentration from a thousand tons of molten FLiBe and lead.

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#717
post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if fusion would cost orders of magnitude more than storage. "All the problems associated with" what? Modern batteries don't burst into flame. Anyway the overwhelming bulk of storage is not and will not be chemical batteries.

> "All the problems associated with" what? Economic challenges of quickly building grid-scale battery storage , battery production for the entire globe, NIMBY's etc. > Modern batteries don't burst into flame they literally do > the overwhelming bulk of storage is not batteries Well overwhelming bulk is a high bar and storage is geography dependent. Germany f.e. can't build as much pumped storage as Australia and Aust…

Germany has an overabundance of hills. Most places do. But pumped storage is just one of many options

Modern batteries do not burn. Teslas do.

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#718

Very disappointed by the discourse in this HN thread. The same old quips over and over. "NIF is just a nuclear stewardship program", "it's not actually generating power", "fusion still 30 years away". I think it's very clear, given the past year that NIF has had, that they are very rapidly approaching a point where we have the tech to "solve" inertial fusion. https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/papers-presentations Getting…

    > Very disappointed by the discourse in this HN thread. The same old quips over and over. "NIF is just a nuclear stewardship program", "it's not actually generating power", "fusion still 30 years away".
The interesting thing here is that every part of what you said I completely agree with. My behavior, however, indicates otherwise. I didn't read the article[0]. I went directly to the HN comments mostly because I wanted to cut through the hype.

Basically, I came to the comments to hear from the skeptics. Of course, most of the skeptics fall victim to a mental trap.

I think there is one key difference between "what I was looking to read from skeptics" and "what most skeptics used as arguments". The information I was seeking: to understand the difference between what the "breakthrough" was being reported as and what the breakthrough actually was. The information I received was: "this is impossible for (reasons)"

An equally important thing I was seeking was to understand was how this work might affect other industries (before it results in "fusion power").

The thing I'm least interested in is hearing "why it will never happen." I think most of us know many of the reasons this is a "Marsshot" problem[1]. I think most of us get annoyed when the media presents news in a manner that provides the general public with extremely unrealistic expectations and are sensitive to the dangers of that, but we get frustrated by those kinds of comments because, likely, none of us need to be told that! :)

It's impossible to make a useful argument to a skeptic that "this technology will exist in (insert timeframe)." The point at which (timeframe) is a trustworthy estimate usually coincides with the technology maturing to the point that the skeptics fall off (or turn out to be right if "timeframe" is never). And there's a long way to go (I think I saw a list of 10 or so "extremely hard problems") but this certainly appears to be something that is chipping away at one of the "impossible problems." Over-simplifying as this is, the rate at which technology advances is not linear; it accelerates. The next problem may not be as difficult or knowledge we attain from solving this one may be able to be used to solve related problems[2].

[0] There were several others on the topic and being ft.com, I assumed it would require a subscription that I do not have.

[1] Maybe far more difficult, but I never liked "moonshot" when describing something that hasn't been done, yet.

[2] Again, not a physicist, but reading through various "fusion is doomed" lists, many of the problems center around "the word 'hot' is a woefully inadequate description".

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#719
post #34

Mandatory video by Sabine Hossenfelder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ4W1g-6JiY So they probably are talking again about Q_plasma, not Q_total .

And a mandatory response that highlights how her ignorance only hurts general society's understanding of the shape of the problem. https://youtu.be/KtqC8W0_Ups

The response does not disagree with Hossenfelder. It just points out, that Q_Plasma is a useful metric to track progress for research and science projects on fusion. However for building a useful fusion power plant only Q_Total is relevant in the end. This has been misrepresented very often and Hossenfelders criticism is absolutely justified.

Re: Fusion energy breakthrough by Livermore Lab

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, this is about 10-th time in the last 10 years we are told "we are around the corner, clean energy will save us". Please tune down the message.

I like how this graph describes why nuclear fusion technology always seems to be "just around the corner": https://imgur.com/a/59NO34a

I really hate what hippies did to nuclear energy. We would've long solved the clean energy problem by now if they hadn't violently opposed anything with the word nuclear
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