The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal • Hacker News Board

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#711

Post by geocar » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:01 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #588

FerociousTimes wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By searching "Californians in Portugal", just one of many on the top search results page: Welcome to Portugal, the new expat haven. Californians, please go home https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-12/califo...

(Turning my sarcasm down here a bit), a west coast newspaper isn't the best source about the foreign resident situation in Portugal and where they do come from. Google translate and all that Instead let me propose an alternate origin of this story: "Hey have you heard that Jamie just moved to Portugal? Maybe we can write a story about that" > “I’d say 95% of my clients are now Americans,” said André Fernandes, a 38-y…

> a west coast newspaper isn't the best source about the foreign resident situation in Portugal and where they do come from.

"a west coast newspaper" should have been enough for you and anyone else looking for "a shred of evidence" that maybe there's something to this, because I would have to assume you being on HN, that you have some idea how to use a search engine. But sure, let me ddg that for you:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/portuguese-influx-californians...

https://www.sandoff.com/portugal-new-home-for-american-expat...

https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2022-05-08/americans-co...

> Instead let me propose an alternate origin of this story...

Actually, please don't: If you can't operate a search engine, and you're unwilling to leave the armchair you speculate from to go find out from people living in Portugal (like me), how about you keep your uneducated and uninformed opinions to yourself?

Thanks.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#712

Post by tiagod » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:02 AM UTC

googlryas wrote: post #502

tarakat wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to empathize with a belief system that thinks pricing a native population out of their own country is fair. I suppose if you hold that everything should be subordinate to economics, including community and nationhood?

But it isn't actually pricing the native population out of the country, just the most desirable cities. But, that was already happening to a huge swath of the native population beforehand by the native population, so what is different for majority of Portuguese who could never move to Lisbon or Porto? Not much. They couldn't afford to move to lisbon 20 years ago, and they can't move there now. I see the same dynamic…

> But it isn't actually pricing the native population out of the country, just the most desirable cities.

Most of my family have lived within the same 10km for at least 4 generations... It's not the same thing to live where I grew up and close to my friends and family or 50km away. Especially on normal Portuguese salaries which seriously restrict travel.

Sure, if you're in tech (like I am) you can just work remotely from anywhere and you can afford the gas and tolls, but you can also just rent in the city.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#713

Post by raverbashing » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:05 AM UTC

geocar wrote: post #711

raverbashing wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Turning my sarcasm down here a bit), a west coast newspaper isn't the best source about the foreign resident situation in Portugal and where they do come from. Google translate and all that Instead let me propose an alternate origin of this story: "Hey have you heard that Jamie just moved to Portugal? Maybe we can write a story about that" > “I’d say 95% of my clients are now Americans,” said André Fernandes, a 38-y…

> a west coast newspaper isn't the best source about the foreign resident situation in Portugal and where they do come from. "a west coast newspaper" should have been enough for you and anyone else looking for "a shred of evidence" that maybe there's something to this, because I would have to assume you being on HN, that you have some idea how to use a search engine. But sure, let me ddg that for you: https://www.fox…

Don't assume I don't know anyone living in Portugal, quite the contrary. Americans are not on the top 10 list of most present nationalities https://eco.sapo.pt/2022/06/23/quase-700-mil-estrangeiros-vi...

Apresente fontes portuguesas sobre o assunto e a discussão será mais interessante

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#714

Post by dionidium » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:06 AM UTC

gherkinnn wrote: post #607

dionidium wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying issue is that demand for these places has increased in our new globally-connected world. That's not going away. Cute little lake houses aren't going to be a local secret anywhere in the world, anymore, and the sooner people realize that, the sooner they can think about how to adjust to it. We are currently in the "denial" phase. We can't get to "acceptance" fast enough.

The problem isn’t a lack of “cute little lake houses”. The problem are is a lack of “affordable homes”. Or any home. And adjusting to what exactly? Living in squalor way outside of what you call home because some parasite gets to live in a furnished and unaffordable temp home, payed for by a relocation package?

If you care at all about convincing others of this point, I think you should know that when you use words like “parasite” to describe people engaging in ordinary economic activity my eyes roll back in my head and I don’t hear anything else you have to say.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#715

Post by lelanthran » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:08 AM UTC

immibis wrote: post #210

_vbnz wrote: post #193

Europe is facing complete economic collapse in the face of hyper-inflation, energy shortages, the Euro collapsing in value and rising interest rates. It's a shame that the continent that was once the birthplace of democracy, the scientific method, the industrial revolution and socialism has been reduced to nothing more than an open-air museum for wealthy Americans and a refugee centre for the victims of their wars. W…

Last time Europe had "strong leaders who will put first" it did NOT end well.

> Last time Europe had "strong leaders who will put first" it did NOT end well.

If the leaders of a country won't put their own citizens first, who should they put first?

I mean, for a country, which group of people are more important to that country than the citizens?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#716

Post by dionidium » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:09 AM UTC

pydry wrote: post #648

dionidium wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying issue is that demand for these places has increased in our new globally-connected world. That's not going away. Cute little lake houses aren't going to be a local secret anywhere in the world, anymore, and the sooner people realize that, the sooner they can think about how to adjust to it. We are currently in the "denial" phase. We can't get to "acceptance" fast enough.

The underlying issue is wealth inequality. There's a glut of capital chasing returns internationally that grows bigger every year. If 10 people with $1 to spend on an apple, and one person suddenly had $11 you could say demand for apples had "doubled", implying that this the result of an implacable, impersonal, unchangeable force but it absolutely isnt.

This is a bit of a shell game. What you describe is just another way to say that demand has increased. And your reframing doesn’t help us much, because there’s nothing in the short term you’re going to do to drastically change the global inequality landscape. So if we accept your explanation we’re actually worse off than where we started.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#717

Post by nicolas_t » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:10 AM UTC

tmnvix wrote: post #667

nicolas_t wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an apartment that sits empty, I'd love to rent it, I even have a license to rent it for holiday rental but it took 2 years and an half for the proper permits to be filled for me to renovate the apartment, once that went through, covid happened and it was not possible to find anyone to do the work, eventually the constructors I hired started doing the work but stopped in the middle claiming they can't find empl…

Why not sell it?

Because I really like the location and view, I really wanted to renovate it, rent it for part of the year to tourists and stay in it for part of the year.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#718

Post by geocar » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

googlryas wrote: post #288

Isn't it more accurate to say the Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Lisbon(or Porto, or some other desirable city)? If you have a city with X housing units, but 5X people from within the city + all over the country/world want to live there, and for whatever reason no one wants to/can build 4X more housing units, how do you fairly determine who gets to live there and who doesn't? * Is it fair if you were born…

> how do you fairly determine who gets to live there and who doesn't?

Well, we live in a democracy here, and so we vote.

Our government announced their intention to ban residential investments in Porto, Lisboa, and the Algarve for the golden visa, and adjustments to the taxes for long-term v. short-term letting that went into effect this year.

It will take time to see if it is actually fair or not, but the cool thing about democracy is we can always vote again in the future!

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#719

Post by gverrilla » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:14 AM UTC

dsq wrote: post #692

redleggedfrog wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history tells us anything it's rich people's heads on pikes and shit ton of strife.

Killer drones and airborne attack lasers for hire will counter that, partially, same as mounted cavalry put down starving peasant rebellions in the middle ages.

Police alone is enough, and also better than drones because they will disseminate ideology and also vote for your party.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#720

Post by kaashif » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:18 AM UTC

wnolens wrote: post #567

kaashif wrote: post #335

This article makes me realise how fortunate I am to be the children of immigrants. My parents are very family oriented and were somewhat upset when I left my home country (which isn't my parents' original home country) for greener pastures, but if there's one thing immigrants understand, it's that if things are hard, you should move to where things aren't hard! I'm sure the author has their reasons or whatever, but w…

You: > My parents are very family oriented and were somewhat upset when I left my home country Also you: > It's just incredible to me that someone would act against their own economic interests so blatantly It appears you didn't adopt your parents' family values. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think the strong will to remain near one's roots SHOULD be all that "incredible" to you. I'm also the child of immigran…

> Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think the strong will to remain near one's roots SHOULD be all that "incredible" to you.

Regardless of what I "should" think, if people are complaining about not being able to afford to live somewhere, then they stay there while their disposable income drops and drops until they're struggling, all while alternatives are available, that is incredible to me.

I can empathise with feeling sad about leaving and delaying, but I don't think I'll ever be able to really understand the author's final decision.

> Perhaps the demand for your skills in other countries made it easy for you to immigrate. Most cannot do that. They're stuck there

But this isn't exactly what I'm talking about, is it? The author is bilingual, has a Bachelor's degree, and lives in the EU (and even further, the Schengen area), a single labour market.

We can talk in general about how some people are stuck. Indeed, helping people who can't help themselves is one of the main purposes of government, but the author doesn't seem stuck. Their comments and background indicate they're in Portugal by choice.