Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

711–720 of 883 posts

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#711

Post by mike00632 »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #20

No, science must pursue the truth, no matter where it leads. There is no such thing as a hate fact.

Imagine if we devoted a tremendous amount of resources to studying whether being left or right handed increased your chances of transmitting COVID. Then millions of people online start citing scientific papers saying that right handed people spread COVID more often. Then some left handed people attack right handed people (similar to how Asian Americans are being brutalized in public during the pandemic). The point is that choosing to study the differences in certain demographic groups makes a big assumption that it's important to study the groups for whatever reason.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#712

Post by mike00632 »

mizzack wrote: post #138
cycomanic wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lyn…

You don't need to make up a hypothetical disease. Just look at the current monkeypox situation with health authorities waffling on how best to message that 98% of cases are in men who have sex with men. It's simultaneously totally relevant information from a public health standpoint while also being stigmatizing. Completely ignoring the facts/suppressing that info to avoid stigma would contribute to greater spread wi…

You mean in the United States. Monkeypox isn't a MSM disease worldwide. And you should perhaps look at the case trends in countries where children have started going back to school.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#713

Post by wrp »

marsa wrote: post #694
wrp wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and he are using "science" for different things. He is talking about a methodology, and you are talking about social institutions. It's like the difference between "prayer" and "the Church". The methodology of prayer is independent of what social agenda the Church may pursue.

could you please elaborate? because to me it feels like prayer (on an individual level) is very much aligned with the church's social agenda (on a global level)

I think that you are thinking of prayer in terms of what you pray for, while I was referring to your procedure for performing a prayer.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#714

Post by mike00632 »

refurb wrote: post #446
cycomanic wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lyn…

What alternative are you suggesting? That the public be lied to? Misled? "Despite report, this disease is not primarily spread by red hair people"?. Then what happens when the truth does get out? Who do you think the public believes then? It was pretty clear this approach was used during Covid. "You don't need to wear a mask", "Covid vaccines prevent infection" are just a couple claims that were made "for the public'…

To be clear, vaccines do provide a degree of protection from infection. They also reduce the severity and likelyhood of transmission of diseases.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#715

Post by EntropyIsAHoax »

blueflow wrote: post #704
EntropyIsAHoax wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean medical transition, since socially transitioning--such as by changing your name and pronouns--would generally be considered performing a gender even if that doesn't involve changing things like clothing and behaviours (e.g. cis tomboys and femboys exist and are performing the gender they were assigned at birth, just not in a typical way) A short answer is impossible here, I think. But if you're genu…

Next transgenderism dogma: Socially transitioning being a thing. I don't believe that wearing specific clothes and demanding she/her pronouns from other people makes me less male than i happened to be. Or more female. Nor do i believe this applies for other people or sex swapped. > just not in a typical way We are in a post-enlightenment democracy. You can just do atypical things. And it doesn't make you more or less…

> You can just do atypical things. And it doesn't make you more or less female or male or transitioning or anything like that.

...yes

That's why I said cis tomboys are still girls and cis femboys are still boys (not sure what the enlightenment or democracy have to do with this discussion)

> I don't believe that wearing specific clothes and demanding she/her pronouns from other people makes me less male than i happened to be. Or more female. Nor do i believe this applies for other people or gender roles swapped.

I can see this discussion won't go anywhere if you're not willing to justify your beliefs, and if you're going to continue insisting that trans people are a monolith. And at the same time imply the tired and untrue claim that trans people deny biology (no one thinks swapping clothes changes your sex characteristics). When we say socially transitioning, we just mean performing gender in a different way, it's just being contrarion to say it's "not a thing", this is probably one of the few objectively true things about trans people.

And it's contradictory to claim that gender performativity is correct, and then later also claim that your performance of gender does not change your gender. Pick a side

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#717

Post by mike00632 »

nomel wrote: post #434
deanCommie wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with this: I don't know how I can explain why this kind of discourse opens trans people up to violence if we can't first agree why this is transphobic. Fundamentally we keep having this conversation in humanity. "This is wrong (homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist, casteist)" "No it isn't!" And over and over and over again. And we look back and think how could it have been possible that we were SO di…

> Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one. I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see i…

Did you know that more people came out as left handed when the condition stopped being stigmatized? I don't share your "concerns" about there being more LGBT people in the world because they were always there; now they are just being recognized (by both rights groups and bigots who are currently focusing on them).

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#718

Post by [deleted] »

istinetz wrote: post #637
onion2k wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this "pure white supremacy"? That's an easy one. America has had a couple of centuries of systemic racism keeping majority-black communities poor, uneducated, and not particularly fearful of prison (relative to majority-white communities). When you combine that poverty with an easy opportunity to loot something valuable in a situation where there's a perception of not being caught due to the chaos, people will…

>It's simply that you've grown up in a society where white people are literally considered superior. The white supremacy is all around you. You don't notice it in the same way you don't notice the air you breathe. When someone points it out though, you should probably listen at least, even if you choose not to act. I'm Bulgarian. We've been slaves longer than the trans-atlantic slave trade existed. Up until 45 years…

[deleted]

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#719

Post by mike00632 »

nomel wrote: post #467
magicalist wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Transitioning should start before puberty, for best outcome. There's no way to not "think of the children" since the best outcome requires children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/

Delaying puberty isn't "transitioning". You mentioned hormone blockers so you seem to have some knowledge which makes me think that you are intentionally misrepresenting what is happening in order to deny medical care to trans children. Despicable.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#720

Post by [deleted] »

nomel wrote: post #434
deanCommie wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with this: I don't know how I can explain why this kind of discourse opens trans people up to violence if we can't first agree why this is transphobic. Fundamentally we keep having this conversation in humanity. "This is wrong (homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist, casteist)" "No it isn't!" And over and over and over again. And we look back and think how could it have been possible that we were SO di…

> Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one. I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see i…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN