Earlier quoted context omitted.
And you can't achieve that with a co-working place? That's what I do. But I get to live in any city or country I want while earning the salary of any city/country I want.
Sure, co-working places can achieve that too. But if you're living in the same city as a company office, then might as well use that. :)
Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
711–720 of 734 posts
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#712There are few points I do not see much discussed so far: - remote work, for jobs eligible to such model, does need a paradigm shift, it's not sustainable trying mimicking the in-office model in a "virtual" world. I see almost no discussion about that, especially in work division, outcome measuring, hw&sw vs hosted platforms etc terms. IMVHO that's a hyper central point to mainstream WFH for all eligible jobs; - remot…
> real technical, political, philosophical discussions Do you know of another good place for that aside from HN?
Talking in person with tea or coffee, decide to go out for a common dinner it's a thing, having a call just for acculturate discussion is another... Let's say I feel a bit of lack of "groups stimulus", while I have more time to think myself, draw new ideas, potential projects etc, it's not a net loss but still a certain loss, well compensated by other aspects of the sparse life in the nature. A thing still to be considered depending of age, career, family etc at personal level and another thing to be considered in general social terms to draw a new distributed society, we still need aggregation points, only perhaps not big nor generic as cities, like small poles who will be abandoned/redone from scratch at a certain point in time, but small enough and centered enough to been able to redo and abandon them at sustainable time and costs.
So far I here exactly ZERO serious talks about a future society where WFH became mainstream for eligible jobs even on HN, just to say.
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#713Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I spend 15 minutes walking in a park. > Yes, spending hours in a car is not the best choice. > One should ask themselves why they chose to sign a contract with a company hours away by car in the first place. Good for you, realisticly not many people are that fortunate to find a nearby opportunity. 15 mins walk takes me nowhere, but remote work opens endless opportunities for me.
> Good for you, realisticly not many people are that fortunate to find a nearby opportunity If that's true, then you can't really complain about it. But in my opinion if people are willing to resign or accept a (rather big) paycut to work from home, they could have found a lower paid job closer to home. In my case it wasn't luck, I moved to another city to get the job, but I chose to live at 15 minutes walking distan…
Good point, so far so good but we'll see as time goes.
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#714Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think your post paints a false dichotomy. It's not always a choice between working from home and commuting huge distances to an office in a city you hate. I live 10 minutes from the office and live in a town I love. This isn't luck - it's a choice I have made. Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but some of your comments make it sound like you might be in the category of people who don't find it as easy as…
It's naive and a function of serious privilege to posit that your home and job location are generally just a choice you can simply make. If you want a nice environment and a short commute, that substantially limits your opportunities. If you have a family or other ties with their own geographic restrictions, vastly more so. You absolutely were lucky to find something you liked. Saying otherwise is a textbook example…
Well I don't think I was lucky actually - I sacrificed for it. I could be based in London and have a better salary and different opportunities.
I'm privileged in that I have skills that are in demand in several cities/towns and no dependents, but I suspect lots of people are in that place on this website, and these things are choices. Not everyone has to choose to take the biggest salary with the biggest companies somewhere they hate.
If you are a programmer in the UK for instance, the best programming jobs with the highest salaries are in London, but there are plenty of opportunities in Leeds, Manchester, Sutton Colefield, Edinburgh, Bristol, Brighton, York, Oxford, Bath... All places which are lovely to live in and will give you jobs within 10 minutes if you choose to have that life.
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#715Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…
It's not about the office, it's about the commuting, which can often increase the length of the working day by 25% or more, and can add a thoroughly miserable start and end to that day (stuck in traffic, or on delayed/overcrowded trains), and make life seem much worse even if you're doing enjoyable work with great people in a really nice office. Offices have their pros and cons (WFH can be a horribly lonely experienc…
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#716Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#717However, I still see problems that are difficult or even impossible to resolve. Even though I was able to maintain team velocity comparable to a fully in-person team there are significant downsides. First off, I have always overworked myself, but I don't think it's healthy and I discourage others from doing so. Leading a fully remote team required me to work more hours even when we were in the same time zone. Yes, you get back time from not having to commute, but on average my hours increased by more than my commute time when my teams were fully remote. I will summarize the root causes of this problem as I have been able to identify them.
First, remote meetings are dramatically less productive regardless of their length the second there are more than 3 people involved. Someone will attempt to multi-task if any topic they are not heavily involved in gets brought up. In short, getting organized and ensuring everyone involved has received and retained important information becomes far more difficult and time concuming. Anything I tell a group larger than 3 will ultimately result in my having to repeat that information for at least 1 person, and the larger the group the more times I end up repeating that information. This increases the time I spend organizing my team to keep them productive from maybe 1/6th of my time to easily half. Given that I also need to train lower level developers to become higher level developers, this tends to reduce the time I have to develop by 1/2 to 2/3rds.
Second, not having clear start and stop times makes it far more difficult for developers to manage their time effectively. I've seen senior devs that would normally have developed for 5 hours (plus meetings) and been done for the day jumpt to 10 hours and burn out. I've also seen a lot more junior devs try to work on a problem for 2-3 hours, feeling they can't interrupt seniors or mid level devs because of our online status, and then give up for the day. In either case, the odds that they quit and look for a different job shoots through the roof. This means developers that would otherwise have productive enjoyable careers are more frequently leaving the industry because they aren't in the upper 10% of people when it comes to self-management.
I'm not saying remote work is a bad thing, but it's really important we understand their are trade offs, and that these trade offs either reduce the number of people we can work with, or may require us to work more hours than are healthy.
To be completely clear, I don't advocate requiring people to come in, but when choosing an employer if everything else is equal I'm more likely to pick the company where everyone lives in the same city and we have the option to come into the office or not. I will especially choose them if I'm able to require that some people come in on certain days if I've identified them as someone that doesn't pay attention during meetings or has time management issues like overworking or giving up because they can't figure it out on their own.
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#718Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can tell you from direct experience that he is no big loss for Apple. And he wasn't "Apple's Director of ML" as in the headline makes it sound like the top company lead for this topic. He was a director, among many. A reasonably sized group leader, not say, a JG.
Likewise when he left Google for Apple the media painted him as the director of Google AI
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#719Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anarcho-capitalism does not oppose unions. Free association is a libertarian principle.
That's true. The point I was trying to make is that everyone-but-ancaps implicitly support at least one collective system. I just picked that one because it's rare.
Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
#720Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves. I guess I can give a bit of perspective. I don't think people should be "forced" into 100% office work, but I can say that as a junior engineer, I am wildly more productive when I'm in the office with my co-workers compared to at home alone. I graduated into the pandem…
That sounds to me more like a team failing to adjust to a good WFH setup than anything intrinsic to the difference between WFH/office work. To be clear I’m not in an engineering role, I’m more of an applied scientist, but I started my newest job the day my company forced everyone to work from home for the pandemic, and overall my experience was very positive. Got lots of support and help, spent lots of time in slack/…
The team failed to adjust to WFH because intrinsically team building, knowledge sharing, mentoring, etc. is more difficult when working remotely.