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Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#711
post #587
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think that this is just one example of many across a ton of disciplines where people like Nurses basically are forced to deal with costs and responsibilities offloaded onto them from above the responsibility chain. Resources are eaten up at the top of the chain to their benefit and costs are offloaded down the chain until it reaches people like Nurses at the end of the line who have to deal with it because…

I think this is due to Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy : https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html "In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agric…

Nurses, teachers, charity workers, IEPs, game devs.

These are all jobs where people sign up for the job. Whether it’s altruism or genuine passion. They’re willing to compromise and put up with less pay and harder working conditions.

But because they’re willing to compromise, these people are pushed to their limit. With not only low pay and shit conditions, but higher-ups which actively exploit their altruism and passion. “If you don’t work, patients / children are going to suffer!” coming from the same beaurocracy which created the situation where a) they suffer or b) you work extra hours.

They’re being pushed past the limit in fact, which is why there’s now a nursing and teaching shortage despite these actually being popular fields. A lot of people want to work these professions, they just don’t want the jobs.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#713
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one I think you are missing is that nurses are and have been overworked for a WHILE now. (that's what I get from /r/nursing) Hospitals have made sure they hire JUST ENOUGH nurses to cover shifts and no more. With covid hitting, this blew out the number of nurses needed resulting in a lot of "I know you've already worked 60 hours, but can you do another 20? we are short!". Rather than hiring permanent people or up…

I actually think that this is just one example of many across a ton of disciplines where people like Nurses basically are forced to deal with costs and responsibilities offloaded onto them from above the responsibility chain. Resources are eaten up at the top of the chain to their benefit and costs are offloaded down the chain until it reaches people like Nurses at the end of the line who have to deal with it because…

> There is no shortage of people wanting to be nurses (in some places it is extremely competitive), and there is a huge demand for nurses based on shortages everywhere, but somehow we are in a situation where nurses are overworked because they are short staffed.

why is this such a common story across pretty much every single industry? There's more people in the country than 10, 20, 30 years ago. More customers, more money. Why do they think they can handle more work with less workers whose salary is less when adjusting for inflation?

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#714
post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

The one I think you are missing is that nurses are and have been overworked for a WHILE now. (that's what I get from /r/nursing) Hospitals have made sure they hire JUST ENOUGH nurses to cover shifts and no more. With covid hitting, this blew out the number of nurses needed resulting in a lot of "I know you've already worked 60 hours, but can you do another 20? we are short!". Rather than hiring permanent people or up…

I would add that travel nurses are treated better in a lot of ways. Staff nurses must attend certain meetings and training aimed at standardizing care and improving outcomes. The travelers don't have to attend. Travelers can take off pretty much any time they want as long as they know before they sign the contract. Sure, they're considered "outsiders" by some staff and sometimes get the less enticing patient assignments, but for those drawbacks, they get paid 4x (I've seen 3-8x staff rates, but 4x seems common) plus a housing stipend as long as their location is more than some distance (I think 40 miles iirc) from their "home" location. Why would anyone be a staff nurse?

Anecdotally, I know a travel nurse who works in pediatric ICUs (PICUs). One shift a couple months ago, the overnight staff on her unit was >80% travelers. And this is in peds units that aren't as affected by COVID, because ~1/2 of the patients are cardiac babies with congenital heart issues. The only case I can see for not paying staff more to increase retention is that they can respond to a dip in cases over the summer, but that can't possibly be an 80% decrease in patients. Maybe they're waiting until travel rates come down to offer an increase in pay so their 1.2x salary offer is more enticing in comparison to the travel rates, but the current system is ridiculous financially. I did mention that we've seen first-hand that hospitals can afford to pay nurses $4k/week, though, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one I think you are missing is that nurses are and have been overworked for a WHILE now. (that's what I get from /r/nursing) Hospitals have made sure they hire JUST ENOUGH nurses to cover shifts and no more. With covid hitting, this blew out the number of nurses needed resulting in a lot of "I know you've already worked 60 hours, but can you do another 20? we are short!". Rather than hiring permanent people or up…

> Rather than hiring permanent people or upping salary, Hospitals have instead elected to just use travel nurses and an extreme premium so as to avoid any salary increases. In case people want an idea of what travel nurses made during COVID... https://khn.org/news/highly-paid-traveling-nurses-fill-staff... > In April, she packed her bags for a two-month contract in then-COVID hot spot New Jersey, as part of what she…

These contracts are likely emergency contracts, which pay outrageously but often require a full week of 12-hour shifts or something similar with the expectation the nurse will only do one week then recover. I've seen this for COVID peaks and when a hospital's entire nursing staff is planning to strike. The $5200/wk rate is more likely 3 or 4 12-hour shifts.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#717
post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

How, in your opinion, did the Affordable Care Act affect nursing? Were you in a position to observe then?

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than hiring permanent people or upping salary, Hospitals have instead elected to just use travel nurses and an extreme premium so as to avoid any salary increases. In case people want an idea of what travel nurses made during COVID... https://khn.org/news/highly-paid-traveling-nurses-fill-staff... > In April, she packed her bags for a two-month contract in then-COVID hot spot New Jersey, as part of what she…

How many working hours are in those weeks?

I replied to the parent, but the highest quotes are probably emergency contracts for 5 or 7 shifts of 12 hours but only for a week. Longer contracts are often 3 months at 3 or 4 shifts per week.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#719
post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This one is big for product designers. You're right that there are definitely opportunities for improvement here. As a Product person that has worked in EMR/Healthcare IT systems, I can tell you the biggest challenge is most of the decisions are driven by legally-required compliance. In many cases, you literally cannot make it better because the brokenness is /by design/ to comply with the law. Nearly across the bo…

There is a reason why these things are like this. Someone with influence is making money hand over fist with the current state of affairs, so it says. Regulation are always penned by those in industry they are set to regulate with government connections. Politicians don't do anything unless there is a push for it by lobbyists or donors because that's where the incentives are.

For healthcare the regulations mostly entrench the big players in insurance. It’s regulatory capture 101.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#720
I work for a major healthcare provider (thousands of nurses) and while there's a lot of unhappiness, nowhere near '90%' are considering leaving.

And really, this is a red herring; the real problem started long before COVID. This video essay nails it (or so care practitioners at my workplace say, anyway): https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000008158650/covid-...

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