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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#711

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

Many Americans in the comments here acknowledge that the admissions system in the United States is broken and prejudiced, and then continue on to celebrate what is otherwise a band-aid for a systemic disorder.

To me, standardized tests like the SAT scream "our education is so inconsistent across our country that instead of attempting to improve it we simply ignore it and focus on an entirely different artifact."

Standardized tests are good for one thing: measuring how good examinees are at taking standardized tests.

Shouldn't a dataset collected over four years be more thorough and representative of a prospective student's capability of successfully navigating what is usually a four year undergraduate program?

After all, the purpose of a system is what it does.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#712

Post by biohacker85 »

tomatowurst wrote: post #577
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist". While I never got a direct answer, I could infer or "read between the lines" that they are not oblivious to the seemingly glaring contradiction to some of their solutions to racism, its just that when it comes to equality--the ends justify the means. Groups whom have previously enjoyed privilege with college admissions (whites and Asians) may endure some injustices and discrimination during this transition phase to equality. Other minorities dealt with this for so long, it's no big deal if some applicants with perfect SAT scores get cut because they are Asian.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#713

Post by mattcwilson »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #646
ecshafer wrote: post #192

College Admissions in the US is broken. This is a great move at restoring normalcy though. The SAT or ACT are the best thing for leveling the playing field between the rich and the poor. If anything I would like to see more reliance on this. If I had my way the US would model the college admissions process on the Chinese Gao Kao. Have everyone take the the exam, have students list their preference for university, the…

You wants kids to grind for an exam instead of becoming passionate about something?

Why not both develop a passion for mathematics and use that to propel your success on the exam?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#714

Post by [deleted] »

BHSPitMonkey wrote: post #479
rayiner wrote: post #447

I don't think people appreciate the radical nature of the attacks on standardized testing. Standardized tests have been critical to higher education and the professions for almost a century. Virtually everyone in an elite academic, government, scientific, legal, medical, or financial role attained that role based, in part, on the SAT and similar exams like the LSAT or MCAT. Not only them, but everyone who taught and…

> If the SAT is not predictive, as some claim, we've been selecting our elites and professionals the wrong way for three generations. Yes, and? The easiest way to understand the shortcomings of these tests (at least their older versions) is to realize that students who use paid SAT/ACT-prep materials and services get higher scores than students who don't. Yes, there are confounding factors, but this fact alone is fai…

[deleted]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#715

Post by cortesoft »

jacobr1 wrote: post #573
dangle1 wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate, and I appreciated the doors the PSAT and SAT opened for me. OTOH, I test higher than my actual abilities in my opinion, and that was a relatively unfair advantage the test gave me.

What does testing higher than one's ability actually mean? I'm guessing either you think the test is an imperfect proxy for a different (more important) skill, or otherwise you have imposter syndrome.

Test taking is a skill, and some people are much better than others. Good test takers understand how test takers make questions, and can use context clues and things we know about how answers are worded to get a higher score than if we were just answering the questions based on how well we know the subject itself.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#716

Post by RC_ITR »

rayiner wrote: post #642
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

>The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture

Kind of wild to erase centuries of cultural heritage by implying that teaching academics with art is a uniquely Anglo-Saxan ideal.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#717

Post by rayiner »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #699
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. For what it's worth, several of my old college friends are heavily involved with extra-curricular programs at the middle school and high school level across a few different states. From what I've observed, your generalization isn't true at all. The extra-curricular programs are actual…

Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#718

Post by simulate-me »

rayiner wrote: post #709
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

> First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants See also: https://www.hbo.com/the-gilded-age . These are the folks who founded Harvard, Yale, etc., and created the ethos of higher education that remains nearly universal in America today. > Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curri…

Harvard was founded in 1636 and Yale was founded in 1701, over 150 years before the gilded age. And why is the blood of WASPs blue?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#719

Post by a-dub »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

it's very likely that i would have never gone to college had there not been an option to test-in. instead i got offers from several top tier institutions based on test scores, essays, work experience and the equivalent of a ged alone.

as such, i'm immensely thankful that the route exists and believe that it should continue to exist as part of a variety of routes for prospective students to demonstrate their aptitude, grit and readiness for higher education.

just as exams and associated scores should not discourage anyone from applying, neither should grade averages or k-12 school experiences. the application process should provide those with all manner of experiences and strengths to make cases that suit their situations best.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#720

Post by tomatowurst »

freedomben wrote: post #667
tomatowurst wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is it different? there are people that make that exact argument, after all it isn't some tabloid paper claiming it as such.

> how is it different? Thanks for asking! IMHO, a couple of ways: 1. Your original asked what GP thinks of people that make the argument. Mine asks about the argument itself. It's subtle but important difference, and to have productive discussion about sensitive topics it's imperative to avoid any sort of personal attacks. Even if one's answer might be "those people are stupid" it doesn't help. By addressing the clai…

Think you are being overly pedantic with syntaxes here to warp my intended context. I did not care about the people, if not clear from my previous comment, that it was intended to raise attention to the idea of standardized testing being perceived as systematic racism, one which is obviously held by some people. It's to be construed as part of everyday speech, not witchhunting on the character of people believing in the said idea that standardized test is systematic racism.

The examples I added of standardized aptitude test for law school entry and the very real biases against Asians in American institutions requiring standardized testing quod erat demonstrandum was designed to set the context in which you are to understand the implicit spirit of the question (not the people rather the focus on standardized test = systematic racism).

Anything else you derived ad litteram to accuse me of malo animo by "moving the conversation away from systemic racism toward a debate about whether there are any other ways to measure aptitude for doing well" is exactly what you are doing here.

However, I am curious to hear what other possible scalable medium you think exists for an institution to properly vet millions of applicants every year and evaluate one's aptitude for law school that does not involve unbiased standardized testing that measures ability to think logically and work under timed pressure? Do you mean to say then that physically active professional sports must properly test a candidates aptitude from their understanding of game theory and physics through a written examination or is that somehow exempt from alternative means to detect aptitude? Shall law schools instead pit candidates in a simulated combat environment like Navy Seal's hell week to test their mental grit? Where does this end?

How does this constitute as systematic racism in your view when the test taker's scantron is measured against a pre-configured solution? Does the scantron system take account the race, socioeconomic background of the exam taker to invalidate and validate their exam responses at the time of scanning? Are test takers given penalties or extra time based on their demographic?

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