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Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

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Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#711

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

analogdreams wrote: post #702
_clhx wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech ends IMO when people can't sleep or enjoy the city they live in for a very extended time b/c of the 24/7 honking. I am all for demonstrating, but I think it is a little ridiculous what they are doing.

Quoted post unavailable.

I don’t think blocking up and honking in a random city where the politicians don’t actually live will do all that much, just expressing frustration at other citizens who have done nothing to harm them. I think those citizens in turn are right to be angry and upset and feel they are being disrupted because they are. I don’t begrudge them this and I don’t think it has anything to do with social betters or not. Having spoken to folks who live there, it apparently really is super disruptive, one person reportedly couldn’t get chemo because of the disruption.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#712

Post by Sophistifunk »

JamisonM wrote: post #548
thepasswordis wrote: post #513

There are too many people making making similar comments to reply to all of them, so I'm going to make a top level response to all of them. The truckers are NOT protesting against the vaccine itself, and if you believe that they are, I would highly encourage you to find different sources for news. The truckers are protesting the idea that the government can force them to take the vaccine against their will. I would h…

Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government, they've conducted educational seminars about the dangers of vaccination full of outlandishly false information. Anyone can believe anything they like but none are required to be so credulous as to believe that the protests are simply about vaccine mandates given the large quantity of published evidence that the organizers and p…

> dissolution of the current democratically elected government

Basically means "a no-confidence vote"

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#713

Post by bregma »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #652
ff317 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question though, which applies to both the Canadian truckers case and the Minneapolis example above - does a right to protest an issue also include a right to inflict economic harm (on broader society, in poorly-targeted fashion) in order to raise awareness? Is the amount of economic harm (say, %GDP of the town, region, or country) or how broadly it's targeted ("random retail stores"? "Anything that relies on…

This is the irony here in that in the situations recently where environmentalists and indigenous protestors halted pipeline construction the Conservatives in parliament railed against these actions, citing economic harms. Now with these protests, causing even more incredibly severe economic harms they've demurred from criticizing the protestors.

They have been actively supporting the protesters. It's not a coincidence that almost all the protests have been in Liberal ridings.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#714

Post by peteradio »

mrtksn wrote: post #635
TeeMassive wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are they actually catching the truckers and injecting them vaccines against their will Nobody said that. You're making a straw man argument. There ware other ways to force than a physical strength and threats of violence. In Canada if you lose your job because of a vaccine mandates you can't claim unemployment benefits or welfare. I can't believe I have to explain this to an adult.

If nobody is saying that why they are saying that the vaccines are forced against their will? Would the right wording be something like crossing borders regularly in professional capacity requires vaccination? That’s quite different from being forced. Can someone clarify please? Are they forced against their will or are they required vaccination if they are willing to partake in a certain task like crossing internati…

They are being forced against their will, their will being to live without onerous restrictions on their livelihoods and the livelihoods of others. That's my understanding, hopefully it clarifies the word usage?

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#715

Post by JamisonM »

TeeMassive wrote: post #608
JamisonM wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government, they've conducted educational seminars about the dangers of vaccination full of outlandishly false information. Anyone can believe anything they like but none are required to be so credulous as to believe that the protests are simply about vaccine mandates given the large quantity of published evidence that the organizers and p…

Can you back what you say with specific examples and how it represents the general consensus of the movement?

The main organizers published an MOU before arriving in the capital and that organizing group still represents the occupation in Ottawa as their defacto leadership and by all accounts appears to be in control of the allocation of resources.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-...

Every protest movement encounters the problem of leadership and managing consensus but the core group is quite small that stays during the week, if they were not aligned with the self-appointed leadership it would be very clear to any outside observer.

There are public declarations of moderation but the Zello and Telegram channels operated by the leadership consistently offer assertions of positions consistent with the original MOU., culminating in efforts like this: https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/governor-generals-off...

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#716

Post by dotnet00 »

bregma wrote: post #673
Banana699 wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protests are only legitimate if they have more than 10% percent of the population? So, for instance, no gay pride demonstration was ever a legitimate protest? Some revolutions were carried out by less than that percentage.

Just remember, a self-selected 10% of the population imposing unwanted hardship on the remaining 90% is less of a revolution and more of a tyranny.

The 90% imposing unwanted hardship on the 10% is also easily described as tyranny, unless you're arguing that the interests of minorities don't matter?

I should clarify that I don't mean to say that this makes the protest valid, just that the argument that protest is only acceptable if an arbitrary number of people are involved is not all that good.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#717

Post by moistly »

FredFS456 wrote: post #627
mrtksn wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

If it is happening, it would be horrible, but it would also be news to me. As far as I can tell as a reasonably-informed citizen, the government is mandating that the truckers have to be fully vaccinated in order to cross the Canada-US border. If they're not vaccinated, they're still free to transport goods within Canada.

In fact, the Canadian federal mandate does not prevent the unvaccinated truckers (and other Canadians) from going to the USA. It’s the American mandate that’s doing that.

The Canadian mandate prevents unvaccinated truckers from coming into Canada.

Which is to say, it’s preventing unvaccinated Americans from coming in, because there aren’t any unvaccinated Canadians allowed into the US from which to return.

And even if an unvaccinated Canadian trucker were to somehow get into the US, they’d still be allowed back, because the government can’t prevent a Canadian from returning home.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#718

Post by rayiner »

JamisonM wrote: post #688
rayiner wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government “Dissolution of the government” has innocuous meaning in a parliamentary system, where “the government” refers to the executive authority of the current party or coalition in power in parliament: https://sencanada.ca/en/sencaplus/how-why/what-is-dissolutio... . It’s about as dramatic as a recall election in certain American st…

I am not deliberately using unfamiliarity with the term to suggest the truckers are calling for overthrow of the governing institutions of the country - they are in fact calling for exactly that, they published an MOU that didn't call for the government to resign but rather called for the Governor General and the Senate to declare the parliament illegitimate. I was being overly generous in my language by implying tha…

I’ve had family members killed in an attempted coup. Coups involve people with guns. Asking existing government institutions to draw on their reserve powers is not a “coup.”

Both the Canadian Senate and the Governor General are, in principle, there to be a check on the House of Commons. Even if asking them to override the actions of the Trudeau government in this context isn’t legally viable, that doesn’t make it an attempt to “overthrow” the government.

In the US, our Supreme Court exercises sweeping powers to strike down acts of Congress based on perceived individual rights. That’s not an “overthrow” of the government.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#719

Post by [deleted] »

Solvitieg wrote: post #646
sdsaga12 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a YouTube channel that has been doing extended livestreams from the ground with both protestors and counter-protestors: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzGiDDKdphJ0GFvEd82WfYQ/vid... As I wrote elsewhere in this thread [1], I recommend taking a look at this channel or other extended livestreams to get a view from the ground if your impression of this event has been mostly shaped by articles. That recommendat…

There are even better Youtube channels which remains largely apolitical, like this one by a citizen journalist: Ottawa Walks: https://www.youtube.com/c/Ottawalks/videos Pre-convoy this user was just doing walking live streams around the city.

[deleted]

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#720

Post by ALittleLight »

oneplane wrote: post #684
ALittleLight wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've never understood about protests of the "you've made your point" variety is what they're supposed to do. I'm thinking of the Women's March and things like that, where there's a scheduled day and people walk around and then they are done. What is that supposed to do? It's less of a protest and more of a parade in my opinion. The trucker protest, on the other hand, I can understand what it is supposed to…

A protest is a sign of disagreement, and a signal for change... not a "We are a small, non-representative but loud group. Now give us what we want." If the point of a protect is go 'get your way', it's essentially a crappy "Might makes right" play. Might as well not vote, ignore all the rules etc. Society doesn't work if you pick-and-choose at scale.

Civil rights protests against segregation, for example, would see protesters filling up or blocking restaurants that would refuse to serve black customers. Basically - you won't serve black people, we will put you out of business. Sometimes the police would come and arrest people, and that would win sympathy for the protesters, because even people who thought "Maybe black people shouldn't eat be allowed to eat at restaurants" might feel pangs of sympathy at seeing people arrested for just sitting at a restaurant counter.

Now, you can say "The trucker protest isn't as important as civil rights" but that's just a "You shouldn't be protesting" argument. Racists thought civil rights protesters shouldn't be protesting too. If the protesters believe their cause is actually important then it makes sense to protest. But, it only makes sense to protest in ways that are likely to result in changes. Symbols are fine, but empty symbolism isn't enough for something you think is really important.

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