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Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

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Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#711
post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again, you're missing the point. People live in homes for their entire lives. If they decide to be owners rather than renters, over the course of their life (actually, typically somewhat less than their whole lives) they will end up mortgage free. This is an important component of most people's retirement planning, in fact. What's the cost to get to that point? It used to 2x annual salary, it's now nearly 6x annu…

>What's the cost to get to that point? It used to 2x annual salary, it's now nearly 6x annual salary. It's just not. You're not accounting for the interest paid over 30 years of a mortgage.

No, I'm assuming best case: zero interest.

You might be arguing that 1970's cost-as-multiple-of-earnings plus 1970-accumulated-interest exceeds 2020's equivalent. Is that your point?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The minimum wage went up to $1.45/hr in Feb, 1970. 2000 hours of that would be $2900. I used the following assumptions: 7.5% fixed-30, median house $17K, down payment of 20%. That was unaffordable by a factor of almost 2x. The house that seemed affordable with no car payment was a little over $9K (down payment of $1800). Adding in a $50/mo car payment took the affordable house down to a little over $8K, less than hal…

If I apply the same calculation today, on a minimum wage of $7.25… Wage: $7.25/h per-month affordable: $362.50 median home price: $374,900 3.519% fixed, 30-yr 20% down required monthly payment -> $1,350 which is unaffordable by a factor of almost 4x. In fairness, the comment chain you're responding to is talking about the thing you're responding to in your comment, but I think the increase in unaffordability at the m…

I agree that it’s gotten worse; I just think people underestimate how much it has always sucked to be among the lowest earning households.

You can look at these retired 70-something boomers driving nice cars, owning a house, and taking a couple trips a year and assume they lived on Easy Street their whole lives when in fact they were probably struggling to pay bills 40 and 50 years ago as well.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I in some kind of weird HN bubble where no-one has ever used a physical map? I've travelled extensively pre-turn by turn navigation using physical maps, i spent a year motorcycling across mainland Europe in my early 20's using nothing but physical maps, I did the same but in the US during the early-mid 2000's. Was it as easy as sticking a zip code into a magic box and having it tell me where to go and when to take…

I used a physical map, but especially inside cities how the hell are you supposed to keep your eyes on the road and navigate at the same time? A 30 minute drive can have idk 50 turns. Do you memorize those 50 turns? What about places where the street signs suck?

Lol... no it's quite the opposite and far less distracting to actually navigate by map. You read the map, interpret the relevant bits, hold (in broad strokes) the entire strategy in your mind, and then just drive. Most of the small decisions don't matter. In fact, this greatly improves situational awareness. I don't need to pay attention to navigating every interesection when I just read the map and realize that every road as long as I'm heading roughly east will dump into the big collector road that I need to get to. I remember whether I'm on one side of the freeway, or the other, and I can find my way onto it without any additional assistance.

Interestingly, it's often MORE efficient than using Waze or some navigation app with ADHD that can't see the forest for the trees. I pity those that never learned to see the forest.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a bubble, and driving using physical maps outside of major highways is a nightmare.

Less pleasant than GPS, sure, but by no means a rare skill or impossible to achieve. Would you get the road wrong more often, and have to stop and re-check? Yeah, definitely. Would you still get from A to B in roughly the same time? Yeah, definitely.

For what it's worth, my experience is the opposite. When I read the map and know the whole path ahead of time I'm far more likely to get it right the first time compared to using an app in the city that tells me to turn right 200 feet from the intersection when I really needed that information 200 yards from the intersection. Or sends me on some weird right then left then right thing instead of realizing I can just go straight.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#716
post #690
post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't that kind of podunk scale for an industry to have a rock solid hold on US politics? Not when a Constitutional Amendment makes that industry "too big to fail" because its thesis on the necessity of the right to keep and bear arms depends on there being an industry manufacturing arms to begin with (at least at modern scale,) and when the industry overwhelmingly supports one political party, driving animosity wit…

The individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right of all free people. It doesn't depend on the existence of the small arms industry. When the US Constitution was written there was hardly even an industry; most firearms were craft built.

> The individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right of all free people.

Gun advocates are always going too far. It's not enough that the Founders specifically and narrowly intended the 2nd Amendment to be a check on tyranny and intentionally exclusive of self-defense, it has to also include self-defense due to popular and intellectually dishonest misinterpretation. No, a right to keep and bear arms is not a fundamental and inalienable right, so it is not a natural right, it is instead by definition a legal right subject to the laws of the State. It can be repealed. Self-defense is a natural right which can not be repealed nor is it subject to the laws of the State, which is why including it in the 2nd Amendment is superfluous and in fact dilutes the power of the 2nd, bastardizes it, transforming it from a self-less right to an intensely selfish, egotistical and psychological entitlement, making everyone less safe.

It is ironic that Right of center dress themselves in such a way, as an advocate of rights, while at the same time dismantling the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. This is an assault on the Constitution, not advocation of it. First we lost the 4th Amendment protections, because police are entitled to search you and your car. Then we lost habeas corpus. Then we lost the 5th Amendment. Then we lost the 2nd Amendment. The words have not changed, they are just misinterpreted or ignored.

There is patriotism, but it is quite distinct from the insistence by many if not most gun advocates for anarchy. Gun advocacy is not patriotism, it is more often psychological entitlement than not. We can only hope there still exist advocates of the 2nd in it's original unadulterated intention, who would selflessly sacrifice their lives to protect others from tyranny, should the need arise, as opposed to the idiots who will shoot and kill others while claiming heroism for haphazardly protecting property.

Best example in modern history of a proper exercise of the 2nd Amendment is armed Black Panthers surrounding a courthouse. If you can't align yourself with the principle, you are no advocate of the 2nd Amendment.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#717
post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right of all free people. It doesn't depend on the existence of the small arms industry. When the US Constitution was written there was hardly even an industry; most firearms were craft built.

If what you're saying were true, it would mean that manufacturing guns and/or ammunition for anything other than personal use could be made illegal without running afoul of the 2nd Amendment. Which is absurd.

This entire thread is why gun control constantly keeps existing as an issue, you two people who should be political allies are now splitting hairs over relatively minor issues compared to the cost of healthcare and wage stagnation

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it reasonable to expect that a minimum wage earner should be able to afford to buy a house and a newish car? Were minimum wage earners doing that in 1970?

Yes it is. Why should the minimum wage not provide a sufficiently secure life for the worker? I say this all the time: if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to be in business .

This is nothing but a platitude that attempts to shame businesses for not meeting some idealistic vision of how the world ought to be.

There's no hard rules about what wages should or should not be, as with any other market price. A business will pay however much they need to attract and keep the labor they need. If no one wants to work for them they need to increase the wages they offer, which may in turn result in higher prices for customers which is also an undesirable outcome. If what they provide is of enough value that customers will continue to pay for it then the higher costs can be absorbed, if they don't, they will fail. If they can't attract workers they will likely also fail. Delivering value at prices people are willing to pay while still covering costs is ultimately what keeps a business in business.

I sometimes wonder if minimum wages are a net benefit at all as it creates several distortions. Some laborers aren't worth paying a minimum wage, they wind up earning nothing from not having work instead of what their true worth is and being able to build up skills. I think it could also remove some negotiating power from laborers. Businesses can peg their wages at the minimum and balk at those asking for raises, they pay the legally mandated price for that tier of work after all. Try to find a new job and you would also find other businesses doing the same, not paying an iota more than legally necessary instead of a more fluid labor market with people switching jobs for marginal gains, driving wages up. What may more naturally be a range of prices, both higher and lower, gets compressed to the minimum, unless that minimum is so low as to not have any effect on wages at all because no one would willingly work at that price.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#719
post #690
post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't that kind of podunk scale for an industry to have a rock solid hold on US politics? Not when a Constitutional Amendment makes that industry "too big to fail" because its thesis on the necessity of the right to keep and bear arms depends on there being an industry manufacturing arms to begin with (at least at modern scale,) and when the industry overwhelmingly supports one political party, driving animosity wit…

The individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right of all free people. It doesn't depend on the existence of the small arms industry. When the US Constitution was written there was hardly even an industry; most firearms were craft built.

> When the US Constitution was written there was hardly even an industry; most firearms were craft built.

You mean at the dawn of the industrial revolution, before which, you know, everything was craft built?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#720
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because both parties are owned by oligarchs who would lose money if that happened. Minimum wage hikes chew through profits and profits are pretty much the #1 legislative priority because that's the primary concern of those doing the campaign financing. Same reason gun control wont happen no matter how many people get killed - ultimately its because gun manufacturers would lose money. American politics is the art of t…

The biggest gun manufacturer you can buy stock in is Ruger (RGR) with a market cap of 1.17B. Add Smith & Wesson and you're at 2B. Throw in Vista Outdoors which owns many of the top US ammo brands (plus some minor firearm and accessory brands) and you can get the total up to 4.3B. I'll multiply that by 10 to guesstimate privately held companies, local gun stores, and the rest of the long tail. So let's say we're at $4…

I remember reading an article on how relatively cheap it is to "buy" politicians, on the order of just a hundred thousand dollars of donations in some cases, for favorable votes on relevant bills and whatnot.

I would assume if normal,everyday citizens started banding together to buy votes the corporations would up the ante and price us out pretty quickly, but as things stand right now there's no point without competition. Power of the free market baby!

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