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Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

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Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#711

Post by rcpt »

mberning wrote: post #700
habosa wrote: post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

Carbon taxes disproportionately hurt low income people. Rich folks will still drive their cars, fly on jets, and use tons of energy in general. Carbon taxes also make your nation less competitive in a global economy. That’s not good when enemy states have zero compunction about using fossil fuels to overtake you economically and militarily. Carbon taxes also incentivize industry to move production to nations with lit…

Climate change disproportionately hurts low income people even more.

Those who rely on crop yields and fish stocks to survive every year and don't have the money to become refugees will have a much harder time than the first world folks who might need to start carpooling.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#712

Post by [deleted] »

titzer wrote: post #707
habosa wrote: post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

> Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon emissions of my flight. I will pay it. So what you're saying is that it won't change your behavior. Why don't you just donate $1000 or whatever to a charity? (I dunno, maybe you already do). I don't mean to attack you, but encoded in your very language is the exact problem. No one is willing to change their own behavior…

[deleted]

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#713

Post by BoxOfRain »

anyonecancode wrote: post #623
jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

> If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. If climate change plays out the way the pandemic has, I think we will have collective action, but it'll be uneven and fall short. We'll avoid the most dire outcomes, but blow right past acceptable outcomes. Many, ma…

If the pandemic is anything to go by, the collective action will harm the common people (especially the poor) while the elites get to play by entirely separate rules! While there's no doubt that sacrifices in quality of life are going to have to be made I think it's very important that the elites are seen to suffer as much as the common man otherwise the inevitable result will be increasingly ungovernable countries.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#714

Post by jpfed »

jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

As a programmer, I empathize with the impulse to go with the elegant, unified solution of carbon taxes.

The problem is that everybody gets hurt, in at least a short-term sense, by a carbon tax. And yes, a lot of people will understand that this is a necessary pain. But all the worst carbon offenders that might campaign against a climate policy would get hurt by the same thing at the same time, so they would provide a large lobbying voice to weaken or destroy what's hurting them (this example is about carbon taxes, but really any sort of universal punitive measure) as a policy.

Politically, punishments will remain effective for longer if they are targeted so that the opposition to them remains divided. It _might_ help if carbon taxes could be adopted on a per-industry basis, because polluters are nothing if not keen to avoid thinking about anything that they perceive as not their problem- it should be possible to avoid triggering any sort of sense of polluter-solidarity on their part.

Another possibility is offering positive financial incentives to stopping fossil fuel activity. The government could directly give cash to companies that stop pulling coal and oil out of the ground, or stop burning it. Fracking companies in particular should be given a ton of money if they convert to geothermal.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#715

Post by jpeloquin »

mberning wrote: post #700
habosa wrote: post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

Carbon taxes disproportionately hurt low income people. Rich folks will still drive their cars, fly on jets, and use tons of energy in general. Carbon taxes also make your nation less competitive in a global economy. That’s not good when enemy states have zero compunction about using fossil fuels to overtake you economically and militarily. Carbon taxes also incentivize industry to move production to nations with lit…

> Carbon taxes disproportionately hurt low income people.

If the carbon tax collected was re-distributed uniformly as a tax credit (each person gets the same tax credit), would it still hurt low income people?

I Googled this and it seems like it should help people with low incomes, but maybe there's something wrong with the underlying reasoning.

https://aneconomicsense.org/2020/08/06/a-carbon-tax-with-red...

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#716

Post by meowkit »

titzer wrote: post #707
habosa wrote: post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

> Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon emissions of my flight. I will pay it. So what you're saying is that it won't change your behavior. Why don't you just donate $1000 or whatever to a charity? (I dunno, maybe you already do). I don't mean to attack you, but encoded in your very language is the exact problem. No one is willing to change their own behavior…

> No one is willing to change their own behavior, they want other people to change.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

A tax is a practical way to address this. Internalizing the externalities is the way the wiki puts it.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#717

Post by cal5k »

syshum wrote: post #509
jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

>> collective action isn't something we can rely on hmmm >>Governments need to You do understand that government is collective action, and you should not rely on it right? > tax CO2 emissions on the business side I am still opposed to Co2 taxation in most of the implementations proposed. it ends up just creating perverse incentives for companies to game the system, Just look at how destructive ewaste regulations have…

Bingo. Carbon taxes in Canada really function as yet another power grab, with the federal government promising to rebate the taxes back to Canadians.

In effect it's a case of "Just trust us with the money... we promise we'll give it back", which will obviously change as soon as more money is needed to fuel their insatiable appetite for spending. It's not even a question of "if", it's "when".

In practice, this means much higher home heating costs in areas where there aren't practical alternatives, higher transportation costs, higher costs for food production, and pretty much price inflation on any consumer goods that are transported by road, rail, or air... which is all of them.

It makes Canadian industry less competitive than ever at a time when GDP per capita is lagging badly behind the US.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#718

Post by rocgf »

titzer wrote: post #707
habosa wrote: post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

> Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon emissions of my flight. I will pay it. So what you're saying is that it won't change your behavior. Why don't you just donate $1000 or whatever to a charity? (I dunno, maybe you already do). I don't mean to attack you, but encoded in your very language is the exact problem. No one is willing to change their own behavior…

Pardon me, but your post is just about virtue signalling or you're missing the point entirely.

If you increase the taxes for something, you will drop the demand and, therefore, consumption. It doesn't matter whether OP will change his/her behaviour, it matter that we, as a planet of people taking X flights per year, will reduce our flights by Y% due to tax.

I don't want to change my behaviour because that doesn't fix anything. I want to be forced to changed my behaviour, along with everyone else on the planet, through taxation for which I am happy to vote for and support with all my being.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#719

Post by toomuchtodo »

meowkit wrote: post #716
titzer wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon emissions of my flight. I will pay it. So what you're saying is that it won't change your behavior. Why don't you just donate $1000 or whatever to a charity? (I dunno, maybe you already do). I don't mean to attack you, but encoded in your very language is the exact problem. No one is willing to change their own behavior…

> No one is willing to change their own behavior, they want other people to change. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons A tax is a practical way to address this. Internalizing the externalities is the way the wiki puts it.

It’s not practical if there isn’t the political will to implement it.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#720

Post by merpnderp »

If anyone actually believed it was "code red for humanity" they'd be pushing nuclear power. There is zero chance of moving off carbon energy sources without causing catastrophic mayhem, unless we use massive amounts of nuclear.

For instance, the last 4 years my state has averaged 37% production of total possible installed wind generation capacity. This is a very windy state which is in the top 2 for installed wind capacity and number one per capita. But throughout a day wind power can very from nearly zero to close to max capacity. Those periods of near zero production can last non-trivial amounts of time no realistic battery could provide for.

The only solutions are continue with our gas turbine/wind power mix where we build enough gas turbines to handle 100% of the load for when the wind production is bottoming out, or replace everything with nuclear.

Nuclear gets us to net carbon zero fastest and with technology easy to export to developing countries in desperate need of plentiful, reliable, cheap electricity.

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