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Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

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Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

230 has a "Good Samaritan" portion. In simplest terms, if the platform does its best to remove illegal content, it's good. Parler is definitely not doing that.

It's also not Apple's job to do any policing before Parler has been found guilty by a court.

It's Apple's job to do what they think is best for their ecosystem. That's pretty much their whole job.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant number of people are threatened by rational critical thinking. They instill these values in their children who then they go off on raving rampages touting false patriotism. You can't make them listen. Taking away their echo chambers is the only way to cool them off.

...is the only way... Wait, has this actually worked before? Ever? Do you have examples? For instance, when they denied "radical Islamist groups" access to popular social media, "radical Islamist groups" just started using less popular social media that is harder to keep tabs on. "Radical Islamist groups" certainly haven't disappeared...

I have an example - I remember a time before social media and internet populism. In those days these same groups existed, but were exclusively on the fringe. You didn't hear people bring up radical alt-right talking points, or sympathize with nazis, or spout outright racism (as much).

The fact of the matter is that echo chambers encourage extremism and social media is nothing but echo chambers.

Another fact of the matter is human psychology. Humans have a biological tendency to accept as truth the first opinion they hear on a topic. This is a result of evolution. If your tribe member tells you a berry is poisonous, is the first response to argue? Or to just listen. Better to be safe than sorry.

When you combine that bit of psychology with social media, you see people go online to some circle jerk, innocently at first, and then get radicalized.

Now before any counter examples get brought out, just consider that while it doesn't work this way for every person, in every context, it does work this way for some non-trivial amount of people, and that's what we're seeing. A lot of users on parler aren't domestic terrorists, but if it's even 1% who fall victim to basic human psychology, that's enough for what took place on Wednesday.

So yeah - the example is the time before social media.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#713
post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... a word that historically was used by people who started a lot of wars... That's us. USA starts lots of wars. We've still got, what, seven going right now? Maybe it's down to six? (Ummm... Iraq Afghanistan Syria Yemen Korea Palestine Iran well that's at least seven but I'm probably missing multiple wars in Africa...)

Yep. And the one President in decades that hasn't started any is apparently the war monger.

No, Iran is his. He assassinated their general on neutral ground. That's an act of war.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#714
post #23

Suddenly half the population is realizing the cons of centralized platforms. Curious if this moment sparks renewed interest in decentralized tech of yesteryear ie the good ol world wide web.

That half voted for Trump. They aren't going to realize anything.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#715
post #399
post #11

Someone brought an interesting perspective in another thread and I can't shake it off. The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're *ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right. We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the populat…

They’ve been shifting the Overton window for years. Are against open borders? Then you’re a racist. Are against abortion? Then you’re a misogynist. Are for a pro worker visa policy and tariffs on imports? Then you’re a nationalist (which isn’t even a bad word but they make it sound like one) Are for the right to bear arms? Then you’re an uneducated hillbilly. Are for churches and other religious institutions to decid…

Your first example:

> Are against open borders? Then you’re a racist.

It's immediately obvious you are arguing in bad faith. Literally no elected official says this.

Edit: instead of downvoting, please find a counterexample and I'll gladly eat my words.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#716
post #512
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is what reddit, twitter and Hacker News reinforce constantly. It's either because it's true, or because the other side has been repeatedly discouraged from adding their two cents in those communities. I've been seeing the world through this lens for so long that I can't tell. I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels. It seems much more likely that I…

> I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels Why do you think this? Racism was the absolute norm in the US until ~not that long ago. It’s literally written into the constitution and it took literal bloodshed to change that. And then when we did, there was massive pushback in the form of Jim Crow laws. Statistically you’d expect half of people to be dumber than a…

Where is racism "literally written" into the constitution?

edit: look I know it's bad form on here to complain about being downvoted, but I was asking an honest question. Chill, people.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#717
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is what reddit, twitter and Hacker News reinforce constantly. It's either because it's true, or because the other side has been repeatedly discouraged from adding their two cents in those communities. I've been seeing the world through this lens for so long that I can't tell. I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels. It seems much more likely that I…

Why does the left have to censor the right? Surely they should be able to beat the right with logical and reasoned arguments? Censorship has always struck me as a tool that a side which isn't confident in its arguments uses.

The left/right dichotomy is not something that is rooted in logic or argumentation but in psychology.

The left is succeeding because it has abandoned argument in favor of the raw pursuit and exercise of power, including their incessant moralizing, which is of course how a priestly caste expresses power.

Why would they go back to debating?

They censor because its playing field they're winning on.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#718
post #508

>Anyone who buys an Apple phone is apparently a user. Apparently they know what is best for you by telling you which apps you may and may not use. Apparently they believe Parler is responsible for ALL user generated content on Parler. Therefor by the same logic, Apple must be responsible for ALL actions taken by their phones. Every car bomb, every illegal cell phone conversation, every illegal crime committed on an i…

Can I play Devil's advocate here? Why not lock out browsers that aren't controlled by the os? What about email clients?

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#719
post #11

Someone brought an interesting perspective in another thread and I can't shake it off. The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're *ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right. We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the populat…

For those who think the parent comment was conflating extreme right and average right, I just want to add some clarification as to why deplatforming still affects large swathes of the population and not just extreme segments.

I’m a strong social and fiscal conservative who never voted for nor liked Trump. I’m religious and that informs my opinions on a lot of social issues. I would be in strange company on Parler, but this still bothers me.

My family are all strong Trump supporters to the point that leaves me shaking my head. Working in technology, I also have a lot of progressive friends and coworkers.

As a racial minority, I think I can say this. There’s a real analogue to the general sentiment that LGBT, POC, or female Americans experience and worry about social or professional consequences to voicing their experiences and opinions and the general sentiment conservatives experience from voicing theirs.

Before you castigate me and say it’s false equivalence, take the good advice of the anti-racism movement and “just listen” to why I feel that way.

This is my personal experience as a POC and as a religious conservative working in tech. Even as a more moderate conservative (e.g., I believe climate change is anthropogenic and the state needs to correct for market failures), I genuinely feel like my voice is being suppressed—that is, my opinions are becoming less tolerable by the mainstream. For example, I have very traditional views about LGBT issues and abortion, but those views are becoming labeled as violent (I don’t believe in any kind of violence, BTW, but just believing that doesn’t accord with mainstream beliefs is considered hurtful and violent), in spite of how I support legislation and personally demonstrate fairness and tolerance for my LGBT friends and am sympathetic to women’s health issues.

There are a lot of people on the right who would do well to listen to BLM and those who feel like their voices are being suppressed. There are a lot of people on the left who would do well to listen to conservatives who feel like their voices are being suppressed. Let’s just have more humility about these things. If you feel like you’re in a morally/intellectually/factually superior position, quit treating people who aren’t as enlightened as the enemy. Treat them with some decency and compassion and listen so you might persuade them instead of berating them about their wrongness.

I think it’s hubris to be so confident in our own positions as to preclude accepting people’s lived experiences (like mine) as meaningful anecdata.

As I continue to feel the shift to fewer and fewer outlets for my voice, I genuinely worry. I blame the extremists on the right, absolutely, but I also blame extremists on the left. At the core I blame the tendency to not listen.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#720
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very rarely hear this hope expressed and I struggle to believe it—can you elaborate?

I don't doubt that so many people on the right are hurting. Their constant accusations of being called the "fly-over states" is totally true. There is endless rural decay, industry is gone. When life is difficult like that, it is very easy to pine for a time gone past when things were better. But now it's gotten so bad that people are desperate. COVID-19 has made it much worse, and people don't want to follow restric…

I think what you're saying about causation has a lot of truth to it. I believe one of the other fundamental considerations is simple numbers. Looking at the pictures of the Capitol riot it doesn't look like there were more than a few thousand people there and probably less than ten percent of those breached the Capitol and/or engaged in violence. There are more than 328 million people in the US, some minute percentage of those people, because of mental illness or some sort of subclinical ideological derangement are going to be drawn into this kind of idiocy given the present environment.

The rise of online platforms unquestionable explains part of why large hordes of conspiracy addled red hats have taken to the streets. But I am very pessimistic about the potential for deplatforming to solve this problem. Clinton famously said that the Chinese censoring the Internet would be like, "nailing jello to a wall," basically impossible. It turns out, for the most part, the Chinese have been able to hammer down dissent online. But they were able to write almost any laws they wanted, create a massive censorship apparatus, and exert control over every aspect of society. Even with all these advantages they barely managed it. Western society will never be willing to exert the control necessary to effectively manage online speech. There are simply too many members of the alt right, creating too much demand, for them to be effectively cut off from communication platforms. Trying will likely be counterproductive. It will balkanize the internet into more ideologically extreme and insular networks where "responsible adults" have less influence. It will feed a sense of paranoia and persecution. Over time it will lead them to harden their platforms and improve their tactics of evasion making it more difficult to monitor them and exert any kind of control.

We also have the very significant problem of where to draw the line. Now that the big tech platforms have decided to remove political speech that they believe is dangerous, there will be a lot of pressure on them to keep going. "If you removed $X for $I why are you now giving a platform to $Y to say $J?" There is going to be a lot of discussion in the coming months about what kind of opinions should lead to deplatforming, not all of it is going to be productive.

There is no easy solution and deplatforming is probably part of the answer. I believe a larger part will (or at least should) be finding more effective ways to reach out and influence opinions when possible. The Capitol police being caught so unprepared shows the urgent need for effective intelligence and responsive protection strategies. If deplatforming is used in an excessive or capricious manner it is likely to make any kind of effective action much more difficult.

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