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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#711

Post by chalst »

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

While WA is near ubiquitous in Germany, from my own experience many non-technical people in the UK prefer Telegram to WA. WA is the only way I can reach some of my contacts in Germany, but with my UK contacts I can avoid it altogether.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#712

Post by fsflover »

eznzt wrote: post #673
rusk wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?

> E2E by default

Only if you trust Facebook with their proprietary software.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#713

Post by herbst »

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I am in europe, switzerland and plenty of friends in austria. Yes many of my social circle have whatsapp but none is using it exclusively as it was some years ago.

People have the choice and use it. Not sure what is holding other circles back?

I havent had whatsapp in 4+ years and only rarely have to fall back to SMS

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#714

Post by rusk »

tomp wrote: post #710
rusk wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

Who cares if it's "technically illegal" if there's no fines for it. I seriously doubt that the EU will grow teeth anytime soon (but I hope to be surprised!).

It’s not the EU you need to worry about it’s the courts ... check out the whole Max Schrems Facebook thing and the Apple Tax stuff is yet ongoing ...

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#715

Post by krageon »

chalst wrote: post #539
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

The author is a toxic dictator who hates the idea of ceding power so that they can have a constructive and open protocol for everyone. That means the app should never be used, by anyone. If you're going to use software like this, you may as well stay with whatsapp - at least that has a lot of users.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#716

Post by igravious »

kar1181 wrote: post #704
tdubhro1 wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my Facebook account after 1 month of usage 10 years ago). However, I had to reinstall WhatsApp because all of my kid's sports activities and school updates are organised through WhatsApp groups and it is impossible to participate without WhatsApp. Much as I believ…

This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell. You have a choice but it's a bit like voluntary solitary confinement. Especially during a lockdown.

When I switched from Windows to Linux, sure there were some inconveniences but with enough technical knowledge and a bit of inconvenience I was able to get by.

But social media? What do I switch to?

> This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell.

Exactly my problem too (car mechanic, plumber, school parent committee, loads of my friends …) – I need my car fixed, I need my plumbing fixed, I need to communicate with other parents. I hate that I have no choice but to use a Facebook product when I am not even on Facebook!

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#717

Post by emteycz »

ravingraven wrote: post #691
kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

>Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities [...] Our generation is reinventing the wheel here, our ancestors had exactly the same problems with the power, water, gas, telephone and rail networks (at some point in time, all those were unregulated and privately owned) and did exactly that. Critical infrastructure needs to be heavily, regulated if not outright publicly owned.

Sure, let's make the public alternative, but I am strongly against taking over businesses.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#718

Post by herbst »

dessant wrote: post #596
skinkestek wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on your exact needs either Telegram or (preferably IMO) Matrix might be a solution. (Yes, I think this is correct: For anyone who are currently on WhatsApp or anything Facebook for that matter even Telegram is a huge improvement in most ways.)

I get your point, but moving people to Signal has been an accomplishment on its own, you get to say "we should move to this new private app" only so many times, before your friends and family grab their torches.

Well if you just remove the app and let them know where they can find you. They basically have no choice.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#719

Post by Aachen »

tao_oat wrote: post #553
Aachen wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

> Wire is the better choice if you can sacrifice a tiny bit of usability for better privacy. Do you mean better privacy than Signal? I was under the impression that Signal was significantly ahead of Wire in this regard with features like private groups and private contact discovery.

They're both hosted on USA-based services, they both have proper encryption on the client and apply it also to calls and video calls. There is no significant difference to me in terms of privacy.

Usability is slightly different, yes, and you might also trust Signal more because they do better PR (they say outright that they're from the USA and get money from Facebook, while Wire has devs in Berlin and claims to be a German company, while taking money from USA investors... which imo comes down to the same thing), or you might trust Wire more because they were actually audited at all.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#720

Post by upofadown »

croes wrote: post #413
upofadown wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protocol isn't really the root issue with interoperability. It's identity. As a start you should be able to easily use your verified identities across the different systems. Signal would probably be a poor base for an interoperability standard. Which flavour would you use? Signal Messenger, Matrix, OMEMO and allegedly WhatsApp all use the Signal protocol but can not interoperate at all. Signal Protocol is also mo…

Simple as possible? Than use email. The security of the signal protocol is necessary if you look who all wants to read the data. The EU wants to practically abolish encryption so that intelligence services and authorities can read all messages.

In general, more complicated cryptography is less secure than simple cryptography. More stuff to attack.
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