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A Sad Day for Rust

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Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#711

Post by hindsightbias »

zzzeek wrote: post #615
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My belief is that intuition and emotion are just complex sets of logic that we haven’t understood yet. Put in the time and focus, and one day it will just click.

they will be understood someday, but only by highly advanced mathematical models developed through machine learning. models which humans will not actually be capable of understanding.

Decades ago, my coworkers and I would draw FSMs of our mgmt on the white board with cryptic lables. While they did get complicated they were understandable.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#712

Post by iknowstuff »

rhodysurf wrote: post #79
ddevault wrote: post #38

A lot of this thread has it wrong, and this wrongness contributes to the problem which led to this. I have two simple mantras which establish my philosophy here: 1. YOU are responsible for your dependencies. 2. Open source participants are volunteers and owe you nothing. It was never Nikolay's job to vet actix-web for you, nor did it become his job when the library became popular, nor does invoking "security" change…

As someone who works for a dod contractor this whole situation sounds crazy. Just because something is available as a crate doesnt mean you are to assume it safe or appropriate for your use. The onus of verifying the dependencies should always be on the consumer.

That's what they were doing. They vetted it, provided patches and examples of triggering UB, and the maintainer called it "boring".

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#713

Post by zzzeek »

fsckboy wrote: post #651
zzzeek wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

emotionalism is strongly linked to irrationality. once someone is irrational I'm not following how that can be reduced to a "difference in priorities". I'm an open source maintainer of some very popular projects. more in the early days, I was certainly irrational on a few occasions where someone called out things that I did wrong and I refused to see it. It wasn't like I had de-prioritized "making sure the code is no…

But rationality (in the human sense) is completely governed by emotion. Curiosity about an unsolved problem? that's emotional regulation of the brain. Satisfaction that a problem is solved? also emotion. Beauty in a better solution? emotion. This has significance, it's not just a restatement of "the problem" using different terminology. It's significant because the brain, like every other part of the body, evolved pa…

this does not negate the fact that a breakdown in rationality is also caused by emotion. the human brain is emotional throughout. however the part of it that has "rational debates" is not an intrinsic behavior. that part is based on cognitive skill which will perform to a greater or lesser extent based on current brain state. if the amygdala is active in a state of fear or anger, "rational debate" skill will be compromised, since that is not a useful skill in the traditional evolutionary situation that calls for fear or anger.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#714

Post by zelon88 »

> Its author also works at Microsoft, and suggested that Microsoft is using actix-web in production. This was really exciting to people. This was the second project using Rust at Microsoft, and so this seemed really fantastic.

Well if the project isn't FOSS anymore I can't see Microsoft continuing to use it, which makes me question the accuracy of this statement in the first place.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#715

Post by jes5199 »

the amplification of reasonable criticism into harassment campaigns is a major dynamic in the last few years, and it generally ends up pushing people completely offline instead of like, allowing them to improve.

It's in open source but it's affecting everyone who posts their work online, which is to say, anyone doing anything that's publicly visible, anywhere.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#716

Post by rudedogg »

dbcfd wrote: post #460
munmaek wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you use now? Warp?

Right now, if you want async/await, you either have warp or tide. Hopefully gotham or rocket gets around to updating.

Can anyone comment on how close Rocket is to a 0.5 release? I’ve been wondering for awhile, but opening an issue to ask seems annoying.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#717

Post by swayson »

strbean wrote: post #656
_-___________-_ wrote: post #352

I've written a lot of Rust code that's in production in web, messaging and telephony contexts. I considered using Actix early on, but as soon as I saw the large amount of unsafe code, I stopped considering it at all. I did not go on the Internet and try to convince other people not to use it. I did not complain at the maintainer that he should manage his project differently. I just didn't see why a library doing what…

I have to question your position from a moral standpoint though. If you were a rollercoaster engineer, and you saw that a rollercoaster had an unsafe design, would you follow a similar approach? "I'm not going to ride that, but I'll let this line of people ride it without warning them." Obviously the stakes are wildly different, but still...

That is a false equivalence, roller coasters have far more material risk given human lives are at stake.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#718

Post by orblivion »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #614
ddevault wrote: post #38

A lot of this thread has it wrong, and this wrongness contributes to the problem which led to this. I have two simple mantras which establish my philosophy here: 1. YOU are responsible for your dependencies. 2. Open source participants are volunteers and owe you nothing. It was never Nikolay's job to vet actix-web for you, nor did it become his job when the library became popular, nor does invoking "security" change…

> Open source participants are volunteers and owe you nothing. I can't agree. Not for all participants. Let's take Linus. He's in charge of the Linux project, which thousands (millions?) of people contribute to every day. If Linus suddenly stopped merging any and all patches—but refused to officially step down—what do you think would happen? Oh, the project would more than survive—someone would fork it and that would…

I thought I was going crazy when nobody seemed to express this point of view. These are exactly my feelings about this. Perhaps maintainers get the brunt of entitlement and lack of appreciation, and don't have any interest after all that in stepping back and seeing it from this perspective. I think that there may be a disconnect in understanding of words such as "owe", "expect", etc.

I think that we could use some norms around this. Perhaps there could be an EXPECTATIONS.md in each project where we lay out exactly what to expect from the author, if anything. Maybe even specify a monetary incentive to take things further. And then the rest of us know exactly what to ask for if things aren't up to expectations. But no matter what, make sure to show appreciation to everybody who does what they do as a volunteer.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#720

Post by cerberusss »

mratsim wrote: post #536
virtue3 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time to validate a PR, to test it, to verify it. He is not being paid for his time, he does not owe -anyone- his time. If you don't like the way a project is being run, fork it and own it yourself. I know that's harsh, and not idealistic, but it's the way people should really think about this. People take FOSS for granted, CONSTANTLY. And maintainers even more so.

The PR contributor was not paid either to investigate the bug, reproduce it, write a patch and test it. However instead of raising a "don't work, please fix" bug s/he took the time to do all that. Anyone that went to such length deserve basic courtesy, whether the code is accepted or refused. Refusing a patch because it is "boring" is not respecting the time people dedicated to your project. I would understand refusi…

These are merely your expectations, and this will probably disappoint you in the future.

I have replied to logged issues with the question: "I don't work on this, unless you have set aside a budget that pays my hourly rate".

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