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Why is modern web development so complicated?

vrk.dev

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Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

html != static

Static literally == not using JavaScript to manipulate the DOM. Once you're stuck using JS for core functionality, you really want a decent programming language. I think people are complaining about two separate things - actually-static-ish websites like newspapers, shipping 10MB, and web apps like Facebook shipping 10MB. The latter is an unavoidable outcome of shipping Serious Software; the former is mostly driven b…

I think static could have multiple meaning, and the one the original comment meant is ambiguous. There are "static site generators" which technically generate static sites, but could still use JavaScript.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#712
post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever tried to support a native application? There's a reason why the web is the preferred mode of delivery over the internet.

Sure, I do. And it doesn't seem that people that still have to support Internet Explorer have a much easier time considering that they seem to have settled on using a whole additional layer of abstraction !

It really comes down to ease-of-updates. Web apps are trivial to update. No build / cross-platform / deployment issues that you encounter with native apps.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#713
post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

React (and other SPAs) may be fashionable , but I generally contend that--when written well or even passably , which obviously requires an asterisk lest the Scotsmen come by but I don't think is a very high bar--if nothing else it requires developers to treat a web application as a client of an API rather than tightly integrating it. It enforces a level of separation of concerns that, IME, tends to encourage loose co…

SPA apps will decouple the backend from the front end, but the front end will always be specific to a backend in the vast majority of cases. I don't see how that is so different from templates being rendered on the server. Old school server side rendered apps are underrated and its perfectly possible to make something that looks and behaves as well as a SPA app for most things.

I disagree that the frontend will be specific in even a "vast" majority of cases--if only because of the obvious proliferation of mobile. And while I agree that you can often make a good-looking server-side-rendered, templated application, I will contest that you can ever make a server-side-rendered, templated application feel correctly on a mobile device.

Even in the case where you do have a specific frontend, I contend that there's still value in the separation because it very strongly encourages (coupled with tools like, shameless plug, nestjs-data-sec[0]) the writing of very clear viewmodels where thought must be put into what exactly should be exposed over the wire in a way that commingling database objects and template logic doesn't allow.

I think server-side rendered pages are properly rated at this point, not underrated; there are places to use them but they're shrinking as other tooling get better. As an example, even I write React almost exclusively because I write React faster and with fewer errors than any templating language I see in common use except maybe Razor (and Razor implies buying into ASP.NET, which, no). React/TypeScript are hard to get wrong and easy to burn through quickly. And I would call a React page rendered through NextJS a "server-side rendered app"--but I get the feeling you would not. ;)

[0] - https://github.com/eropple/nestjs-data-sec

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely in that other industry the engineer built 100+ other basically identical items that are two or three orders of magnitude less complex and where all the costs and techniques are pretty well known. Also, those mature industries routinely overrun by millions of dollars and months or years, event though they are dealing with a fraction of the complexity and the costs and techniques are well known. Software is the…

> Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries" I have a feeling that some SpaceX engineers would have something to say about this after one of their rockets lands on a floating barge.

Software landed the rocket on on a floating barge. The hardware is just holes for hot gas to come out.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely in that other industry the engineer built 100+ other basically identical items that are two or three orders of magnitude less complex and where all the costs and techniques are pretty well known. Also, those mature industries routinely overrun by millions of dollars and months or years, event though they are dealing with a fraction of the complexity and the costs and techniques are well known. Software is the…

>>>>Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries" Anyone engineering hypersonic missiles would easily dispute that.[1] Or submarine-capable quantum communication systems.[2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/magazine/hypersonic-missi... [2] https://www.realcleardefense.c…

There are occasionally novel engineering projects. These will be millions of dollars and years over budget, and then will fail. All their "mature industry standards and procedures and certifications" wont' save them.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#716
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely in that other industry the engineer built 100+ other basically identical items that are two or three orders of magnitude less complex and where all the costs and techniques are pretty well known. Also, those mature industries routinely overrun by millions of dollars and months or years, event though they are dealing with a fraction of the complexity and the costs and techniques are well known. Software is the…

90% of Web applications are database frontends. What they do to the end user might be different, how the pieces come together, it is always the same, unless one is doing curriculum driven development.

90% of apps use databases, but that doesn't mean they are just database frontends. If you zoom in there is always specialized domain logic that is custom to that app. If there isn't it shouldn't have been built.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

html != static

Static literally == not using JavaScript to manipulate the DOM. Once you're stuck using JS for core functionality, you really want a decent programming language. I think people are complaining about two separate things - actually-static-ish websites like newspapers, shipping 10MB, and web apps like Facebook shipping 10MB. The latter is an unavoidable outcome of shipping Serious Software; the former is mostly driven b…

Yeah we re talking about html, not static. Plus, iirc, it is actually most SPAs that are ‘static’, i.e served as plain index.html containing all the Javascript.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I do. And it doesn't seem that people that still have to support Internet Explorer have a much easier time considering that they seem to have settled on using a whole additional layer of abstraction !

It really comes down to ease-of-updates. Web apps are trivial to update. No build / cross-platform / deployment issues that you encounter with native apps.

Updates are a problem that has been solved decades ago by package managers ?

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really comes down to ease-of-updates. Web apps are trivial to update. No build / cross-platform / deployment issues that you encounter with native apps.

Updates are a problem that has been solved decades ago by package managers ?

Velocity of updates is also important. If I update a package, it can take weeks, months... maybe years... before end users update. If I update a web site, it's instantaneous.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#720
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the full title of the book? I searched on Amazon and there are a few titles containing "Parkinson's Law". Thanks.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parkinsons-Law-Pursuit-Progress-Bus...

Yes that one indeed.
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