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Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

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Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not relevant. Some people get the right to internet access. They don't get the right to say what they want where they want without moderation.

Not irrelevant. The OP said that "no one is entitled to online speech". That's an unqualified statement which my link disproves. If they had instead qualified it as, "no one has a right to speech on Facebook", that's a different claim (arguably also false depending on the circumstances).

You seem to be confusing two different rights.

The right to Internet access is not the right to say whatever you like on the Internet.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people did a lot of damage. A lot. Like what? If this damage is so prevalent then it should be easy to cite something specific.

I honestly feel this is a bit of a disingenuous thing to ask, considering the article in question actually discusses the kind of emotional harm that this kind of behavior has caused to a large number of people.

For example, Alex Jones didn't actually cause that harm did he? If he didn't actively incite his fans to harass those families, is he responsible for their harassment? He's being sued so I suppose we'll see where the liability lies, but a lawsuit is exactly the proper response here. Why should his speech also be censored?

People seem really fond of jumping over a lot of steps to blame people for their indirect influence apparently without realizing how accepting this sort of argument makes us all culpable of fairly heinous crimes.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> given that the idea of the "public square" doesn't encompass harvesting the conversations which happen therein, aggressive tailored marketing, and leaking of personal information from everyone who crosses through. Oh, so marketers aren't allowed to poll, film or listen in on conversations that happen out in public? In fact that's perfectly legal. > Facebook capitalises on the notion of a public square. That does no…

Going back to your slippery slope argument, where does it end? Is HN not a public forum as well? Are my constitutional rights being violated when a moderator deletes something a post here on HN? What about all those shadow banned users, are they entitled to their free speech on any website that allows comments?

Firstly, I don't think I ever made a slippery slope argument. That seems to be something you've read into my comments somehow.

Secondly, any legal distinction is established via a multi-part test. As a first pass, I would ask:

1. Is the site open and particularly, targeted to the general public?

2. Does the site enjoy widespread use by the general public?

3. Is the site intended to foster open discussion on any topic? For instance, the public itself drives most conversation on the platform.

This isn't necessarily exhaustive, just a first pass. HN is targeted at a technical audience (although its open to anyone), it's typically used only by this subset of the general public, and its content is narrowly focused on technical subject matter, so it would fail two parts of this test.

Facebook definitely passes all three qualifications, Twitter doesn't have as widespread use by the general public but it continues to grow.

> What about all those shadow banned users, are they entitled to their free speech on any website that allows comments?

Shadow banning seems like a poor idea. Terms of service that encourage civil discussion are perfectly fine, and violators should get an explicit and public timeout, never a ban. I've toyed with the idea that repeat offences trigger exponentially increasing timeouts.

Judging violations of ToS should be a transparent process. Something like jury duty as a term of using a service also seems like it might be a workable idea. Corporations have their own motives for censorship, primarily profit motives to draw in advertisers, and so they have incentives to bury anything even remotely controversial and are not incentivized to evaluate anything "fairly".

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole idea of free speech rights rests on the assumption that speech can cause action. No, free speech is a natural right. The recognition of free speech is not contingent on any outside factors aside from the recognition that humans speak just like they breath. > There have been quite a few recent shooting sprees where the perpetrators either explicitly referenced online personae, or the investigation revealed…

>So? Did these shooters also go to the grocery store? It's ridiculous to ban Coca Cola because a shooter predominantly drank diet coke. This is ridiculous, if drinking diet coke made people violent and go on shooting sprees against innocent people, it'd be banned. We all know they're radicalized on places like 4chan, 8chan, Voat, Gab.ai, many alt-right subreddits, alt-right YouTube channels and Facebook accounts.

> This is ridiculous, if drinking diet coke made people violent and go on shooting sprees against innocent people, it'd be banned. We all know they're radicalized on places like 4chan, 8chan, Voat, Gab.ai, many alt-right subreddits, alt-right YouTube channels and Facebook accounts.

And you can prove that these online sites cause people to go out and shoot people? Because actual studies on these topics have failed to support any such conclusion:

https://www.rand.org/randeurope/research/projects/internet-a...

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#715

Attitudes towards free speech have changed a lot in recent times. This is related to the rise of social media. The advent of social media had made it too easy to spread hate online. It started off innocently enough, with cat videos uploaded to youtube, but soon extremists were taking advantage of social media for radicalization purposes, and others even live-streaming mass murders. This has caused an upheaval in atti…

I agree. People tend to forget that their "rights" end where another person's rights begin. Every right comes with responsibilities. While freedom of speech is important, the right to live peacefully free from hateful invective is probably even more fundamental.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#716

Every time this subject comes up, someone inevitably says something like "Facebook is a private corporation, the first amendment only applies to the government, and if you want to use Facebook you have to play by their rules. No one is owed a platform." Platforms like Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter are basically monopolies. They are the only services in their class to take seriously if you're looking to gain a follow…

Let's take your argument that these corporations are monopoly as truth for a moment, there are still rules. In the USA, just because we have the first amendment doesn't mean you're not responsible for your words. Fighting words is a thing (it's actually a term), verbal harassment is a thing, etc... Alex Jones from InfoWar sic his followers to harass the Sandy Hook victims' parents. He was free to say what he wants an…

> In the USA, just because we have the first amendment doesn't mean you're not responsible for your words.

Translating into English: "your words incur a great debt that you will pay dearly for." Being responsible for the consequences is just a euphemism for debt collection.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#717
post #169

I imagine the people who are happy about this event aren't very fun at parties.

I imagine people who say others aren’t fun at parties, are themselves not very fun at parties.

I'm not the one advocating exclusivity.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#718
post #248

Once again, I find it ironic to be holding an absolutist free speech view on a website that automatically deletes opinions the community doesn't like.

Free speech has nothing to do with the right to be listened to.

But did Facebook force you to read Farrakhan or Jones before they got kicked out?

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#719

>In some instances, when Facebook bans an individual or organization, it also restricts others from expressing praise or support for them on its platforms Will it restrict people from saying these things in WhatsApp? If they already have the infrastructure for wholesale censorship like this, perhaps a China re-launch is right around the corner. They might be able to give WeChat a run for their RMB.

Yes, Facebook is taking some steps in WhatsApp to reduce the speed at which misinformation travels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_WhatsApp_lynchings Specifically, making it a bit harder to rapidly forward large numbers of messages to large groups of people. https://www.vox.com/2019/1/25/18197002/whatsapp-message-limi...

That sounds closer to anti-spam than target censorship. WeChat (and even the messaging feature in DiDi!) have keyword filters that block messages with certain words.

That sounds like the direction Facebook is headed with this banning of people and talking about them.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Paul Joseph Watson spewing misinformation about the extent of the refugee crisis is dangerous. Is it any more dangerous than the lies politicians spewed about it in Europe though? We know that a bunch of those politicians straight up either lied or didn't know what they were talking about. We have had terror attacks carried out in Europe by refugees or asylum seekers that have killed people. Some sources even claim…

>We have had terror attacks carried out in Europe by refugees or asylum seekers that have killed people. For some bizarre reason, people get angry when you bomb them.

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. The question is whether information about the refugee crisis is dangerous or not. Every attack carried out by a refugee or asylum seeker wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been there.
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