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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#711

Post by hippich »

mariozivic wrote: post #652
sseveran wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what is not realistic about it. We are talking about things which are incredibly difficult to value because there is no market for them to set a competitive price. In your Apple example the most productive employees are all in the US not island nations. If the money is being held by on overseas subsidiary then Apple can't use the money as it otherwise would if it could freely cross borders.

There was an article exlaining how they get that money back in U.S. tax-free. Something along the lines of geting a loan from the bank against deposit by their pardise subsidiary. Also, the money owned by the subsidiary is allegedly in NY bansk, not some small paradise banks.

I do not see how that would work. Do you imply loan is getting foreclosed at some point and bank takes collateral from the offshore bank? In that case US subsidiary will pay full-rate income tax on the foreclosed amount..

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#712

Post by mercutio2 »

mariozivic wrote: post #652
sseveran wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what is not realistic about it. We are talking about things which are incredibly difficult to value because there is no market for them to set a competitive price. In your Apple example the most productive employees are all in the US not island nations. If the money is being held by on overseas subsidiary then Apple can't use the money as it otherwise would if it could freely cross borders.

There was an article exlaining how they get that money back in U.S. tax-free. Something along the lines of geting a loan from the bank against deposit by their pardise subsidiary. Also, the money owned by the subsidiary is allegedly in NY bansk, not some small paradise banks.

Where money is domiciled is orthogonal to what currency or bank the money is held in.

Similarly, the ability to borrow against assets which are domiciled in a different country is pretty much how international banking works, not a loophole.

The US created this quagmire by choosing (unlike all other modern countries) to tax profits in all territories. Then they combined this with only taxing the profits when they're repatriated.

This legislative own-goal is the root of the problem, it seems to me.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#713

Post by newlyretired »

eggpy wrote: post #545
qznc wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My (ultra-simplistic) idea would to only tax land and VAT. Abolish all other taxes. Unfortunately, governments like fine-grained taxes because it gives them the illusion of control.

That's not true. Here's just one example: fine-grained taxes are used to help influence behavior, improving public health. Mexico increased taxes on sugar [0], with the result being a fall in consumption. Raising this tax has caused a verifiable reduction in consumption, which has a direct impact on public health[1]. That's just one example, many more exist for all sorts of reasons. It's why cigarettes and alcohol ar…

Many people believe this is an overstep on the government's part. These people believe it's not the government's job to be paternalistic and nudge people into the "right direction".

This is based on the complete abhorrence of "scope creep" mixed with near total surveillance and control over the use of force. Those with that much power should not be able to enforce social mores, even if they reflect the will of the people at the time.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#714

Post by libertyEQ »

libertyEQ wrote: post #673
specialist wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time, corporations were chartered, to better serve the public good. Our (USA) founding fathers suffered under the yoke of corporations (eg East India Company, Boston Tea Party) and were wise to limit their power. Then some yahoo slipped in some legal precedent declaring corporations were legally natural persons, weaponizing the 14th amendment. And here we are today pretending that corporations are super p…

~"Capitalism is the worst system ever devised except for all the others." ;) Until we get to a Star Trek-like unlimited resources, it is the best way to allocate our resources to properly incentivize progress and innovation.

Well, this was an unpopular comment. How do we properly incentivize progress and innovation? This is the safest, most prosperous time to be alive in the history of humanity, despite what you have been told.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#715

Post by mercutio2 »

pwinnski wrote: post #684
valuearb wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, Apple pays a world-wide rate of 24.6%. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple... And the real rate is actually higher because it doesn't count the deferred taxes they owe and will pay when they repatriate.

The statement from Apple includes "Apple’s effective tax rate on foreign earnings is 21 percent" but that is not the rate they've actually paid. They state elsewhere that they believe the majority of taxes should be paid in the U.S., but they're not actually paying them here, either. Instead they're holding the income off-shore to avoid paying the taxes where they say they should be paid, and waiting for the rate to…

I don't know if everything you say is accurate, but grant for a moment that it is. I still don't understand what you think is disingenuous.

There is no law that requires US corporations to repatriate their profits; not choosing to do so means they're deferring a tax liability. What's disingenuous about that?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#716

Post by pfranz »

ttoinou wrote: post #621
liberte82 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch Chomsky's Requiem for an American Dream if you want a great analysis of the cyclical nature of corporate power being further and further entrenched as they gain more power to write the laws that benefit them.

Chomsky's solution? Moar state !

(I haven't watched the doc or followed Chomsky much)

I think a lot of the contention is putting faith in the "the market" (but I would hope even staunchest libertarians realize at times that can be disproportionately large companies) or governments. I feel like the extremes on both sides put too much faith in one or the other. To keep each other in check one can't be too much larger, or wield too much power over the other.

When companies become multinational, things can get weird because they can evade single governments. I'm not saying it's always bad, but it is hard to keep them in check.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#717

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

ttoinou wrote: post #675
32hkwejr wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AKA Control of the society that is... 1) Openly documented 2) Viewable by all 3) Accountable to the people not the highest bidder Exactly as the Founding Fathers wrote and spoke of it? They were pre-capitalist, saw the origins of capitalist philosophy beginning, and wrote of their fears about where that will lead a country of free people; straight into the back pockets of the elite (remember the crown was essentially…

Control of the society What does it even mean ? How do you make the government accountable, transparent and openly documented ? Mystery to me

>How do you make the government accountable, transparent and openly documented ? Mystery to me

Sure but less of a mystery than how we can make corporations transparent, accountable and openly documented.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#719

Post by uoaei »

libertyEQ wrote: post #701
smashingfiasco wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, they definitely do keep tabs and actively participate in places like HN. You must have missed seeing this a few years ago... > Members of Apple PR seek tabloid photos of celebrities holding iPhones, while others read Apple-focused blogs actively, and keep tabs on prominent Apple beat writers using anonymized social media accounts. A former Apple PR employee notes that the team enjoys being an “overall watchdog,”…

I've got numerous concerns about YC, but I really like HN. There is a certain decorum we must not violate or we risk becoming like the mess that is the rest of much of the web right now. We need to focus on the content of the arguments being made, not trying to determine what tribes the others belongs to.

That's exactly what an Apple employee would say!

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#720

Post by libertyEQ »

ben_w wrote: post #705
qznc wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds good. It forces all countries to unify VAT. It begs the question why it does not happen already?

It forces them to unify everything except VAT (and land tax). Or, and I only realised this just now, do something complicated with imports, customs, and how to handle cross-border sales of digital goods (the EU does this, but it is a mess). If I had to guess, I’d suggest haven’t already done what you suggest for at least one of these reasons: 1) because it’s economic mutually assured destruction 2) because tax codes…

I don't know for sure, but is it appropriate to use gross GDP numbers instead of GDP/capita? When one is choosing which metrics to use, bias is introduced.
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