Why We Terminated Daily Stormer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#711

Post by yrro » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:57 AM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #698

jrimbault wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchists and communists have long been banned from entering the US. And I've noticed a strong push back against most of the more mild socialists ideas. The US have not been "the land of the free" for a long time. And I will argue that communism is fundamentally a good ideology. While fascism has never leaned on the good side of human nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954 https://en.wik…

>And I will argue that communism is fundamentally a good ideology. This is a dangerous thing to say publicly! As you mention yourself, the United States has had red scares just a generation ago. Who is to say it won't happen again? And that is exactly why you should support freedom of speech and tolerance of differing ideologies. Or the next red scare will be even worse. >statues of Lenin and Stalin were removed with…

> By your logic we should tear down the famous Vietnam war memorial because the US lost the war

Nonsense, the statues are not being removed because they are from the losing side, they are being removed because they commemorate terrorists and traitors, and were in many causes erected by racists later on.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#712

Post by doubleshame » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:58 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #150

doubleshame wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are NOT fighting the people here, we're fighting the ideas. I don't think we should ever forget this.

We're absolutely fighting people. There was a man behind the wheel of that car, you know - it wasn't an abstract idea that drove it into the crowd.

I agree, so take action against that specific man, and take action because he was responsible for an act of violence.

If ten people standing in a row have an idea, you cannot destroy the idea by shooting all of them in the head.

If one of them causes violence, you should not shoot all of them in retaliation.

What would be your judgement if this radical group was just sitting away in their homes typing out blog posts? Would you still censor them?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#713

Post by mozumder » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:58 AM UTC

pitay wrote: post #685

mozumder wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems people have no idea that Nazis are actually extremely violent people. I'm not talking about your average racist, but people that identify with the Nazi party. Violence is central to their philosophy. If you actually met any modern-day Nazis, you would know this. It took me about two days of hanging out with Nazis before they literally tried to blow me up. This isn't some free-speech issue where you debate po…

A couple of things: 1. I was watching the news and in a picture I noticed one of the counter protesters using some sort of spray can as a flamethrower. I also saw the counter protesters beating up a spokesman for the protesters before the police saved him. So violence goes all around. 2. Arresting people just because someone like the parent here calls them violent is a really bad idea. As in, it's horrendous. If all…

If you didn't want to be arrested, then you shouldn't be a member of a group that has waged war against the US?

It's a good idea to arrest violent people. Don't be the libertarian theory nerd that thinks of people as academic concepts only. In the real world, people are violent and dangerous, and they get to be arrested.

Government limits rights and freedoms of individuals to deal with the real world.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#714

Post by icelancer » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:59 AM UTC

contrast wrote: post #621

fennecfoxen wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They won't politely tolerate you. Deviants will be chastised, expelled/expatriated, jailed, or killed. If they have the power to? Yeah, in a heartbeat. But they're not the only ones, or the most powerful ones, just the most ostentatiously intolerant. > 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. If b…

A white supremacist killed someone at the weekend for protesting. If their free speech gives you supreme confidence , then you are simply wrong. The evidence is fresh. You will have free speech - as long as you only go to the right places, say the right things, wear the right clothes, have the right colour skin. Over time, supremacist movements reduce that free space in greater and greater amounts. This is what the e…

>A white supremacist killed someone at the weekend for protesting

This person will be prosecuted and very likely jailed for his crimes. The ACLU is not rushing to defend this.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#715

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:02 AM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #676

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. Neonazi and white supremacist are betraying this social pact by furthering the idea of a superior race and the extermination of the different, that's why they're walking a really thin line when it comes to their right to First Amendment protection. You just resorted to what I call "the…

All political ideologues think their opposition wants to take away their freedoms. If you make the rule that people who want to remove freedoms don't get them, you create a tool for any party in power to silence their opponents.

There is no prerequisite like that in the first amendment. Go read the thing. Monarchism was a serious threat to the founders. Monarchists don't believe in many freedoms including freedom of speech. But the founders didn't specify it only applied to non-monarchs. Because they knew such a feature could be abused.

>You just resorted to what I call "the bad child argument". The bad rich child who already has everything wants an icecream. Mom, for once, says no. The child throws a fit and blames mom for it: if you gave me the ice cream I wouldn't have thrown a fit.

What on Earth are you talking about? Neonazis are spoiled rich kids that get everything they want? Freedom of speech is a luxury like icecream?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#716

Post by Perseids » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:04 AM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #625

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

The first sentence is the main reason we are so fucked. There's literally nothing radical or leftist in what I said. Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact. You know how I know you're actually a shill? > And don't even start with the car-thing. An individual psycho does not compare to organized widely accepted violence. Whataboutism in literally the next paragraph: > What…

I am not qualified to analyze the rest of the comments, but the last/first sentences strikes dear to me. In succession they were:

> > > The idea that Cloudflare is a public space requiring the protection of the first amendment from a company's policies is laughable. The idea that I'm seeing any of these comments arguing to the contrary means HN is already infiltrated by /pol/ and other Nazi sympathizing groups.

> > The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/"-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc.

> The [previous citation] is the main reason we are so fucked. There's literally nothing radical or leftist in what I said. Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact.

The radical part of your first assertion, Akujin, is that it is hard to interpret your statement as anything else than "person A saying that Cloudflare is a public space requiring the protection of the first amendment from a company's policies implies that A is a Nazi sympathizer". These kind of statements are highly polarizing, hurtful and anger-inducing, because they deny A to have any rationally positive reason for their statement and instead generalize A to belong to an undesirable group. Notice how arguments structured in this way will never convince anyone that is not already of your opinion and will increase the outrage of those readers that are already of your opinion. I would call this radicalizing.

Mildly relevant video from CGP Grey "This Video Will Make You Angry": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#717

Post by jamespo » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:06 AM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #649

imbur wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daily stormer, pol, and breitbart are all free to find another web host/CDN or start their own. There is no slippery slope with one business refusing to do business with another one. The business does not need to be accountable to anyone, because they have no requirement to host the daily stormer in the first place.

So a baker could refuse to make a cake for homosexuals then ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group

HTH

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#718

Post by cabalamat » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:07 AM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #625

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

The first sentence is the main reason we are so fucked. There's literally nothing radical or leftist in what I said. Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact. You know how I know you're actually a shill? > And don't even start with the car-thing. An individual psycho does not compare to organized widely accepted violence. Whataboutism in literally the next paragraph: > What…

> Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact.

Not true. "hundreds of millions" implies >= 200 million. According to wikipedia, total deaths during WW2 were 70-85 million. Not all of these were to do with the actions on Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, so the total bodycount for fascism would be c. 50-60 million.

This is a lot, but considerably less than your overblown claim.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#719

Post by abalone » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:09 AM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #653

chvid wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

> You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. To me its strange someone would consider closing down /pol/ a "slippery slope". I am amazed that someone would consider 4chan a moral compass for the type of things their admins should put up with. moot has closed down /pol/ for this very reason in the past with even less "political" awareness t…

> If you are concerned about being silenced by a corporate vendor, then choose your partners wisely.

The issue here is more nuanced. It's about any site on the Internet being censored by a mob. That's why the YouTube or Facebook analogies don't hold. You could always host the content yourself. But DDoS can knock out any unprotected host anywhere. And DDoS protection isn't really something you can DIY.

So the issue here is not about being silenced by a corporate vendor. It's about being silenced, period, wherever you host.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#720

Post by yakcyll » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:12 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #704

camillomiller wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. Neonazi and white supremacist are betraying this social pact by furthering the idea of a superior race and the extermination of the different, that's why they're walking a really thin line when it comes to their right to First Amendment protection. You just resorted to what I call "the…

The First Amendment was instituted by literal slave holders. When did this requirement to (intellectually) respect the rights of others appear?

It's bloody common sense. If you don't respect my rights, there will come a time, as history has shown time and again, when I will gather enough power to be able to not respect yours. And so, slavery was abolished.