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As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

thewalrus.ca

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Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#701

Post by carlosjobim »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #623
carlosjobim wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI can make fully functioning computing solutions. That's just a fact and denying it is like denying that a bicycle can roll and only four wheeled vehicles can. Or saying that a car is a better vehicle than a bicycle. That is probably true, but many times for many people a bicycle is all they can get.

Glad you went for this analogy. It’s like an AI producing a board with a beach umbrella nailed on it and four wheels, and saying “meh it’s good enough for transportation, human car designers are doomed”. It’s functional, right?

If that's your conception of a bicycle.

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#702

Post by LastTrain »

rayiner wrote: post #624
flir wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not totally convinced about the printing press example (expensive, technical). The biggest presses, with the longest reach (daily newspapers) were often owned by the richest people. What's unique now is decentralized + extreme potential reach. Or it was. Now we have to consider bias in the algorithm that sticks stuff in front of us and is, I suspect, the modern equivalent of those daily newspaper presses.

> The biggest presses, with the longest reach (daily newspapers) were often owned by the richest people. You're assuming that "rich" is the only relevant dividing line, which it isn't.

But GP was pointing at commonalities, not differences. It took money to run a major press.

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#703

Post by parineum »

davnicwil wrote: post #611
figassis wrote: post #336

I called this maybe 3y ago, but I think so did everyone else that was sane. Sure, we get immense value from AI, but indiscriminately injecting into everything, the one thing we know to be unreliable above the threshold we used to fire people for, is probably the greatest undoing of all the good companies like Google brought to the internet. I mean what a way to destroy your legacy of democratizing information. The am…

I find it so interesting how many comments about AI start with a disclaimer that of course it's very useful, before pointing out a negative of any sort. I do it too so it's not a criticism, but I find it kinda interesting culturally. It's a reflection I think of the environment that we've created for ourselves, or has been created for us (or some combo) where somehow you can't point out an unqualified negative of thi…

I think you're describing political commentary habits becoming general writing habits.

It works with just about anyone but try and say something positive about Trump and, if you don't add a qualifier like that, the first reply is going to be something like, "I guess you like ICE murdering babies." And then the conversation you wanted to have gets completely derailed.

The majority of people's opinions on the subtopics of complex or controversial topics have to align with their opinion on the overall topic.

AI is bad so it must both be useless and be using up all the water.

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#704

Post by shimman »

flir wrote: post #569
rayiner wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a temporary blip. Specific technologies facilitated an age of mass, top-down communications in the mid 20th century, just by virtue of how those technologies worked. It enabled a small group of people in charge of the radio/TV stations to have a monopoly on communications and media. The technology both before (printing presses with myriad newspapers) and after (the Internet) were by their nature decentralize…

Not totally convinced about the printing press example (expensive, technical). The biggest presses, with the longest reach (daily newspapers) were often owned by the richest people. What's unique now is decentralized + extreme potential reach. Or it was. Now we have to consider bias in the algorithm that sticks stuff in front of us and is, I suspect, the modern equivalent of those daily newspaper presses.

This discounting how many of the 100s of worker owned newspapers/magazines that were in circulation. Not everything was controlled by a select few. How did you think labor movements in America during the 1800s collectively organized across the country sharing literal war stories?

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#705

Post by BeetleB »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #156
BeetleB wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, but arguing that Google should give accurate times based on where you are is ... crazy? In the pre-LLM days it was cool that Google did weather, unit conversions, sports results, etc. But that's not even close to their value proposition. Even 5 years ago if someone told me they had planned a photograph and got it wrong because Google gave them the wrong time for sunset, I would have called them a moron f…

I don't understand your argument. It's not their core value proposition so it's crazy? That's quite a leap. But giving a good answer is just as core as their search results. The answer is what you're there for and they get to show ads. It's not any stupider to use that info than a dedicated site. Both could be wrong, and you're not a moron if it is. Installing an app to learn a single time would be the real moron opt…

> But giving a good answer is just as core as their search results.

What I'm saying is all Google has to do is stop giving those types of "custom" answers it already has. No one will abandon using Search if it goes away.

> It's not any stupider to use that info than a dedicated site. Both could be wrong, and you're not a moron if it is.

It is. Using a well vetted, dedicated app is the way to go, and it's extremely unlikely to be wrong - especially for something like sunset times. You know the dedicated app/site is, well, dedicated to providing that information. They exist to provide that information.

Whereas the (pre-LLM) quick answers Google gave? All opaque. And smart people always knew that information being accurate was not something that matters that much to Google.

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#706

Post by killerstorm »

I don't think it's really an "AI problem", we just got to the "worse" part of the "Worse is better".

Back in the day one of competitors of the World Wide Web was Project Xanadu. Project Xanadu was supposed to address the concerns like content persistence and version management within the core design. As such it was much more complex, opinionated and centralized.

WWW on the other hand comes with no guarantees - you might get a document in response to a HTTP request, and that's it. But WWW service can be rolled out in a completely permissionless way, and is quite simple - effectively, the contents of the file system can be shared with the world, so e.g. a document can be published just by putting its file into a particular directory within the file system.

Thus Web could get to a "good enough" state much faster and quickly spread all over the world. But its permissionlessness and simplicity lead to downsides: impersistence and chaos of broken links, web search provided by mega-corporations, etc.

WWW evolution was, unfortunately, not "incentive compatible" with features like advanced persistence and identification clarity: there was much more focus on entertainment content and ads

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#707

Post by andrewflnr »

bluebarbet wrote: post #678
nunez wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I care because in most (not all) cases, (a) AI UGC is one- to few-shotted with no concern for accuracy or readability, and (b) why would I read the results of someone else's prompt if I can achieve more or less the same result for free on ChatGPT? For example, I was searching for a guide for realigning the v-brakes on my wife's hybrid bike and found this: https://volatacycles.com/how-to-adjust-bike-brakes-rubbing/ No…

Sure, I get that argument. I just don't buy it. What counts is whether the article helps you fix your brakes. If it doesn't, it seems immaterial to me whether or not the bylined author sweated over it for hours. Not least because I have no means of knowing.

GP described multiple reasons it didn't help them fix their brakes.

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#708

Post by bluefirebrand »

davnicwil wrote: post #611
figassis wrote: post #336

I called this maybe 3y ago, but I think so did everyone else that was sane. Sure, we get immense value from AI, but indiscriminately injecting into everything, the one thing we know to be unreliable above the threshold we used to fire people for, is probably the greatest undoing of all the good companies like Google brought to the internet. I mean what a way to destroy your legacy of democratizing information. The am…

I find it so interesting how many comments about AI start with a disclaimer that of course it's very useful, before pointing out a negative of any sort. I do it too so it's not a criticism, but I find it kinda interesting culturally. It's a reflection I think of the environment that we've created for ourselves, or has been created for us (or some combo) where somehow you can't point out an unqualified negative of thi…

> I find it so interesting how many comments about AI start with a disclaimer that of course it's very useful, before pointing out a negative of any sort

People have to post very defensively online, otherwise some "um ackshully" guy will be immediately jumping down their throat

If you write anything negative about AI without stroking the ego of the AI bros first by praising their machine best friends they will be all over you calling you a luddite

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#709

Post by ijk »

flir wrote: post #569
rayiner wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a temporary blip. Specific technologies facilitated an age of mass, top-down communications in the mid 20th century, just by virtue of how those technologies worked. It enabled a small group of people in charge of the radio/TV stations to have a monopoly on communications and media. The technology both before (printing presses with myriad newspapers) and after (the Internet) were by their nature decentralize…

Not totally convinced about the printing press example (expensive, technical). The biggest presses, with the longest reach (daily newspapers) were often owned by the richest people. What's unique now is decentralized + extreme potential reach. Or it was. Now we have to consider bias in the algorithm that sticks stuff in front of us and is, I suspect, the modern equivalent of those daily newspaper presses.

The early pre-United States had pamphlets and newsletters. Like, a lot of them. It was a big influence on the early post office. You could get rich running a printing press but you did it by printing for the masses.

The yellow journalism era, on the other hand, was a little closer to the rich owning the press.

Re: As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing

#710

Post by ragequittah »

deaton wrote: post #622
davnicwil wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it so interesting how many comments about AI start with a disclaimer that of course it's very useful, before pointing out a negative of any sort. I do it too so it's not a criticism, but I find it kinda interesting culturally. It's a reflection I think of the environment that we've created for ourselves, or has been created for us (or some combo) where somehow you can't point out an unqualified negative of thi…

Well I think theres a lot of social pressure to disclaim "yes of course its useful" because if all you do is say "hey AI has this problem," you'll have AI bros replying to you telling you about all the good and saying you're misrepresenting AI.

[dead]
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