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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#701

Post by archagon »

jventura wrote: post #263
kuschku wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other two groups also used LLM but in a high-level and architectural way. Sounds more like the score is 3/3 (100%) Would you have accepted them cooy-pasting code from libraries together to build their project? If not, why is using LLM generated code different?

> Would you have accepted them cooy-pasting code from libraries together to build their project? Yes, if they are "responsible" for the code delivered, where responsible means they understand the code, the architecture, the decisions made, etc. In this case, the students had to invent multiple strategies to solve a specific problem. The "successful" groups did a mix of generated and hand-crafted code (don't know perc…

> and really, what could I do if I were?

I’m not sure what you mean. Have a no-AI policy and fail those who ignore it. If students lie, discipline them appropriately for cheating.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#702

Post by charlie90 »

dmd wrote: post #335
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…

> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. This has not been true for something like 70 years now. People go to university because it is expected that that is what you do after high school.

It wasn't even true before...

Universities have always had people not interested in the subject, but who went because its elite training school. I was reading something about Issac Newtons college in the 1600s, many of his classmates didn't care about studying and drank all the time.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#703

Post by com2kid »

sublinear wrote: post #53
com2kid wrote: post #12

At this point I would support a ban on generative AI by anyone under 18, or even perhaps 21 years of age. A bunch of science fiction stories had "first connection to cyberspace" as a coming of age event, maybe those authors were on to something.

I can't agree. That's similar to past arguments for banning books and the internet. Plagiarism isn't new, and those things enabled it too.

We don't let kindergartners use calculators before they learn how to add numbers.

We shouldn't let LLMs write papers before kids learn how to write for themselves.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#704

Post by insane_dreamer »

amiga386 wrote: post #669
HanayamaTriplet wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the removal of standardized testing in 2021 was the real reason, then why is there a sudden spike of failure rates happening right now?

https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... Please see the graph "Growth of the Math 2 Population by Major (2019-2024)". UCSD's Math 2 class is remedial high-school level maths. It has grown from under 100 students in 2016-2020, to more and more people each year starting from 2021. UCSD tested the people who took this class, and 25% of them could not answer the question "Fill in the box: 7 + 2 = […

this is a Berkeley CS class, not a remedial math class.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#705

Post by insane_dreamer »

matwood wrote: post #198
acaloiar wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students. Could you explain?

It didn't just suddenly materialize. From the current article In addition to overreliance on AI, Garcia also pointed out that many students are underprepared mathematically, a concern echoed by campus associate teaching professor Gireeja Ranade. From the article discussed the other week: Over three years — from fall 2021 to fall 2023 — the letter said, at least 20% of Berkeley first-semester calculus students who too…

> It didn't just suddenly materialize.

Huh? I'd say that a jump from 10% in 2025 to 35% in 2026 qualifies as "suddenly materializing"

That's not to say that things were already getting worse, but this is a big jump that is definitely not explained by not requiring SAT scores.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#706

Post by insane_dreamer »

alphabeta3r56 wrote: post #514
acaloiar wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students. Could you explain?

One big reason is preparation, people start preparing for tests 2 to 3 years in advance. And the method of testing influences exams used in grades before as well. So assume 4 years of high school and someone that just came in. They are still preparing for SAT like tests in their first year of high school. Someone in final year of high school is well trained in it. So even though the benefits do not carry, enough port…

> They are still preparing for SAT like tests in their first year of high school.

Literally nobody does that except high achievers whose parents are pushing them for a high SAT score to get into Stanford or whatnot. Those are not likely to be the kids who are now getting Fs.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#707

Post by II2II »

WorldMaker wrote: post #613
jawilson2 wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've told people this for years. The mode of communication reflects the urgency. If you text me, expect a response on the order of 3+ days. If you call, and I recognize the number, it will be more urgent. If I DON'T recognize it, it goes to voicemail and back in the 3+ days queue. If you show up at my door, it is immediate. Even with my wife, she will text while I'm at the grocery to pick up some extra food items, an…

The current trend seems to be switching the priority order of calls and texts among many of us. I feel like a call should be scheduled, preferably 3+ days out, and preferably with an agenda attached. (Same rules I feel about any sort of meeting.) But a direct text (non-group chat, just to me) is a priority. Group chats get that 1-2 days middle ground.

Wouldn't it depend upon context?

If it is an emergency, it is a voice call. It is both immediate and conveys urgency. If it is something that you need to talk through, it is a scheduled voice call. Asynchronous communications may demonstrate respect for a person's time since it does not (need to) interrupt them in the moment, but the inefficiency results in a disrespectful waste of time for bidirectional conversations.

If it is something where you need a simple response by the end of the day, it is a text. If it requires a lengthy response, email. Never expect a lengthy response by the end of the day, or for it to be handled on devices with terrible input methods (like phones).

Anything that isn't covered by those scenarios will be largely dependent on the person.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#708

Post by calepayson »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #643
jventura wrote: post #241

CS Professor here: just yesterday I did the discussion of a course projects' (Parallel Computing), and one of the three groups that I did yesterday have clearly gone the ChatGPT way. They couldn't even understand the choices the LLM made regarding the architecture, etc. The way to "catch" these students is similar to what we did in the past when students copied from other students which is "to give them rope to hang"…

So all groups outsourced their thinking to an LLM. Will they have learned anything they can apply to different types of projects in future?

In your opinion where is the line on where LLMs are useful/harmful to learning?

In my school projects I've found them super useful for working with libraries. In the past it felt like the theory I learned was pretty low impact. 80% of my time was spent learning the quirks of a library. Now it feels like I can take theory and iterate over a ton of different solutions without having to worry about learning whatever library the professor requires. Basically I'm I feel like it lets me spend more time learning the thing I want to learn rather than all the busywork around it. Would be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#709

Post by insane_dreamer »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #164
somenameforme wrote: post #39

The likely 'real' reason is hidden in one paragraph within the article and has nothing to do with the implication of the eye-catching title: "Both Garcia and Ranade have joined more than 1,300 UC faculty in signing a petition calling for the reinstatement of ACT and SAT standardized testing scores for STEM admissions in the UC system. The petition and its accompanying open letter detail similar concerns with students…

I'm not American so maybe I am missing some context. But how did admissions work without test scores?

Primarily your high school GPA, the average of your grades across 4 years of high school. Which arguably is a better indicator than a single test that you can test for.

The problem is if you have a high school with low standards you're getting A's when you didn't deserve them.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#710

Post by stefan_ »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #534
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. I agree - I would have been toast. I wonder if the teachers/colleges need to change the way they teach and assess. Let the students use the AI tools they like (perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally), but test regularly and early on the skills/knowledge they'r…

Absolutely university has to change. But it's not a simple change. I say this as a professor for Physics: My colleagues say "We must fully embrace AI as a tool". I agree. But how do you teach it? It's a moving target, and you can't even give homework like: "Research with an LLM of your choice, and submit the transcript" because they can do that, or they can just copy the task into an LLM and have the LLM do it. It be…

I feel like German university was already well "LLM proof". Come to class or not, no ones keeping track and it doesn't matter for grade. There are regular exercises, but they are not graded; you can submit them if you want it corrected to check your understanding, but there is also gonna be a short presentation going through it in class. Your entire grade is a 2-3h written exam at the end, no materials, no remote, no books, no multiple choice.
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