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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#701

Post by kelseyfrog »

1718627440 wrote: post #583
baumy wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are clearly out of your depth. Have you ever competed in high level sports? Please don't speak on things you know nothing about. It takes a lot of gall to tell someone 'please let go of the need for this' when they are pointing this out. I will do no such thing, but I likely will give up trying to educate you. I won't respond further unless you pick an example sport, and propose how your "scissor for ability" wou…

His proposal is to make divisions by whatever way it would be the justest way. If that would be the man/woman division for a given sport, than keeping it is part of his proposal. His proposal is not going to be less just than the current rules by definition, but it IS a bit vague.

Her* (sorry)

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#702

Post by fgonzag »

kelipso wrote: post #586
txrx0000 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a relative skill rating system, then there's no need to split competitors into groups. But if you insist, then you can split them based on skill ratings (define a rating range for beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc). And for games with one-on-one matchups, sampling from a gaussian centered on each player's skill rating is good enough.

It will end up being all men at all the skill rating levels.

It doesn't.In tennis a 14 UTR whatever wins against a 13 UTR whatever. UTR is your effectiveness rating against every other player. Same in chess with ELO.

The issue is woman would disappear from profesional sports. Sinners 16.27 rating means that he double bagels Sabalenkas 13.29 essentially 100% of the time. The 500th ATP player has a UTR of 13.81, half a point is quite a bit stronger, do he's still very much stronger than Sabalenka. You probably have to start looking well into the thousand somethings for something that is consisently beaten by her.

Only the top 200 players make money, the top 100 good money, and the top 50 ridiculous money.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#703

Post by zardo »

remarkEon wrote: post #630
zardo wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then I lost to a woman twice my age. We are not talking about elite athletics here. If someone is upset about a transwoman finishing 150th in the local 10k race they need to work that out with a therapist or something.

No one's talking about 10k races that don't matter much. But people are talking about races and events in high school or college that do affect things like scholarships or future professional athletic endeavors. That's really where most of the heartburn started, as far as I can tell. I suppose one option could be to have two lists, the nominal ranking of participants and then a trans-adjusted one that removes those p…

Read the whole comment chain. That's exactly what the sort of competition the question was about.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#704

Post by space_fountain »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #693
space_fountain wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the statement as follows: There is a category called woman, it’s defined by something that’s identify related. Sports should only be segregated by this category, except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt I’m unclear on what you find absurd about this?

> There is a category called woman, it’s defined by something that’s identify related. But that’s not how it’s defined. People have been using that word in every language humans ever invented for thousands of years to mean biological female. If you want to argue that there is something else that isn’t biological sex and you want to invent a word for it, go nuts, but “woman” is already defined. Words can and do change…

I’m not defending this definition, but I will point out that gender has never been about the chromosomes you were born with. It has been about how people around you perceived you and people often have overly simplistic ideas about exactly what that meant.

Plus it’s totally normal for words to have more technical detail than they first appeared. The idea of a sex binary doesn’t fully exist so we’d need something to deal with that anyway.

I personally support segregation based on hormones as the fairest option available. Otherwise if you use purely a genetic test there are plenty of women with high t levels without an sry gene and no one disputes that high t levels confer a biological advantage in many sports

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#705

Post by space_fountain »

remarkEon wrote: post #697
space_fountain wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the statement as follows: There is a category called woman, it’s defined by something that’s identify related. Sports should only be segregated by this category, except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt I’m unclear on what you find absurd about this?

This part: >except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt "I took a drug, therefore I am now a woman" is not a reasonable position to hold. The debate starts out with one based on an identity, and then in the very next formulation reduces that identity to which medicines you take.

No, but that’s not what the statement is saying. It’s arguing that we should add the minimum restrictions we can to the women’s sports category and that hormones might be a reasonable one

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#706

Post by space_fountain »

rdevilla wrote: post #689
space_fountain wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the statement as follows: There is a category called woman, it’s defined by something that’s identify related. Sports should only be segregated by this category, except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt I’m unclear on what you find absurd about this?

This implies that males who identify as women but do not undergo HRT are not women in the context of sports (and their gender in other contexts remains ill defined, especially in the absence of perverse incentive). This is a form of misgendering, which is what we were trying to avoid in the first place. This is a position that one could take up, but it comes at a steep cost. It holds the societal acceptance of transg…

Again I don’t take it be saying that. It’s saying that encouraging women to be forced to be in emotional distress to succeed at sport is problematic so we should require hrt so that elite sport doesn’t require trans women to skip hrt

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#707

Post by olalonde »

citruscomputing wrote: post #589
michaelt wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competitive sport is unusual in that the whole thing is, in a sense, a search for outliers. Finding very rightmost person on the histogram of running speed or swimming ability or weightlifting strength. The very, very rare. The 7ft 6in guys. Then we put them on a podium, hand them a medal, and wrap them in a flag. In most other fields, outliers average out. The new subdivision of houses gets framed at the speed of th…

We have ceded too much ground in this debate. When I say "trans women are women" I mean that, ontologically, it is really true that trans women are a subcategory of the general class "women." Like you say, we are searching for outliers. We don't cut women that are too strong or too tall. We shouldn't cut out women that happen to be trans. If all the top levels of women's sport end up dominated by trans athletes (some…

That ontological classification is a recent invention with almost zero roots in common language. For most people, woman means "adult female".

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#708

Post by rdevilla »

space_fountain wrote: post #706
rdevilla wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This implies that males who identify as women but do not undergo HRT are not women in the context of sports (and their gender in other contexts remains ill defined, especially in the absence of perverse incentive). This is a form of misgendering, which is what we were trying to avoid in the first place. This is a position that one could take up, but it comes at a steep cost. It holds the societal acceptance of transg…

Again I don’t take it be saying that. It’s saying that encouraging women to be forced to be in emotional distress to succeed at sport is problematic so we should require hrt so that elite sport doesn’t require trans women to skip hrt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538165

Such a common pattern, I'm tired of seeing it. "That's not what it's saying, those words actually mean..." again and again, ad infinitum. A perverse form of moving the goalposts. Your reply has no relation whatsoever to what was previously stated, it is a new argument entirely.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#709

Post by space_fountain »

rdevilla wrote: post #708
space_fountain wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I don’t take it be saying that. It’s saying that encouraging women to be forced to be in emotional distress to succeed at sport is problematic so we should require hrt so that elite sport doesn’t require trans women to skip hrt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538165 Such a common pattern, I'm tired of seeing it. "That's not what it's saying, those words actually mean... " again and again, ad infinitum. A perverse form of moving the goalposts. Your reply has no relation whatsoever to what was previously stated, it is a new argument entirely.

Nope, I’m consistently saying the same thing. When have I said something else?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#710

Post by kelipso »

fgonzag wrote: post #702
kelipso wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will end up being all men at all the skill rating levels.

It doesn't.In tennis a 14 UTR whatever wins against a 13 UTR whatever. UTR is your effectiveness rating against every other player. Same in chess with ELO. The issue is woman would disappear from profesional sports. Sinners 16.27 rating means that he double bagels Sabalenkas 13.29 essentially 100% of the time. The 500th ATP player has a UTR of 13.81, half a point is quite a bit stronger, do he's still very much stron…

So women would not be in something like top 2000 of tennis players or worse. Which would basically remove any incentive for women to participate in pro tennis at all.
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