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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#701

Post by mothballed »

crazygringo wrote: post #699
mothballed wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government is requiring the property owner to submit to TSA, that's a public act and not a private one, which means it is bound by the bill of rights and most importantly the 4th 5th and maybe even 6th amendment. The government cannot punish you for exercising your rights by refusing you to move forward into the private place you could otherwise lawfully go. If you can't go to the employee area, that's because…

What are you talking about? The government can absolutely pass laws prohibiting you from entering a privately owned location. There is no constitutional right of access to private property. And more specifically, the commerce clause of the constitution allows the government to regulate air travel, which means regulating airports. The fact that they're privately owned doesn't change anything. If a private airport owne…

Constitutional right of access, which as you say doesn't exist, isn't the same as allowing access but conditioning it upon you relinquishing your bill of rights.

If the difference between access and not having access is relinquishing your civil rights, then the reason for denial is exercising your civil rights. Those are explicitly protected. So while you're right they could make a law that says 'no one on the plane' they cannot make a law that says "everyone on the plane except those who won't give up their 4th or 5th amendment rights not to answer additional questions."

There have been prior SCOTUS cases narrowly allowing asking name, DOB, addresses, as well as inspection of your items during certain inspections, but this is something entirely different beyond that asking further probing questions about your identity.

And that brings us back to the tagline of the article:

  The law, as written, is clear: You have the right to fly without ID, without paying a $45 fee, and without answering questions
The TSA is violating the law, and the constitution, and making it up as they go.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#702

Post by asdf_snar »

duskdozer wrote: post #316
asdf_snar wrote: post #261

I think I must be confused, but after reading many of the replies, I can't figure this out. Is the standard American perspective that one shouldn't have to show any form of identification to go through security, get on a plane, and travel anywhere within the United States? How does anyone associate your ticket to your identity?

Can't speak for the "standard American perspective," but no, you should not have to show identification. Why should someone need to be tracked to travel? Why does a ticket need to be associated to identity?

I'm not stating that they should be. I first want to make sure this is not just a question of the "Real ID". I can think of a couple of reasons that would throw a wrench in the works:

- passengers on no-fly lists or criminals

- anyone who is underage -- do we let 10 year-olds fly alone? how do you assess age without ID? what if the child gets lost while traveling, and you can't even determine whether the child boarded their flight or not? (if you attach ID to the ticket, then that just seems like ID with extra steps? I could be missing something)

- baggage claim: if there is no link between ticket and person, what's to stop me from claiming anyone's luggage as my own?

I'm not firmly attached to any of these objections, actually -- and perhaps they're not even issues, because I'm missing something fundamental about the assumption. I admit my personal bias is that "taking a plane = passport" even when traveling domestically (I'm not a US citizen), so I have not thoroughly considered the possibility that "taking a plane = taking a bus".

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#703

Post by garyfirestorm »

paxys wrote: post #23

It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is. "You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane?" "Well I don't have a Real ID." "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." So it was never about security at all then, was it? And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and la…

It was about immigration. I remember around 2015 when I was on F1 visa - in Michigan - you could get drivers license and it would expire when your visa expired. However my few lucky friends in NY/NJ/CA? Just got blanket 5yr expiry on their licenses from the day of renewal. I.E. their visas could expire well before their ‘IDs’ could. RealID was introduced to eliminate these discrepancies. And to get a realId now you need to show your visa documents/approvals.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#704

Post by ehasbrouck »

calmbonsai wrote: post #697
ehasbrouck wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike other service providers, a common carrier by definition cannot refuse service to anyone willing to pay the fare in the tariff. Common carrier laws are some of the oldest consumer protection laws, enacted to protect travelers and shippers of goods against predatory and discriminatory pricing. Federal law recognizes the "public right of transit" by air, and requires boith airlines and Federal agencies to respect…

This is only true for the "ticket purchase" not for the service itself. Outside of ERs in exigent circumstances, any commercial enterprise in the U.S. retains the right to "refuse service" though the nuances of enumerated reasons backed by jurisprudence differ by industry and locale. An airline can not refuse the "service purchase" unless the customer has been "banned" (technically a trespass statute), but they can r…

This is not true, in at least 2 respects: (1) a common carrier has a legal duty not just to sell a ticket but to provide transportation according to the tariff, and (2) this means an airline can't order a passenger not to board, or order them off the plane, unless they have violated some terms of the tariff. Some airlines have tried to create their own no-fly lists, but without opening up another area of discussion these have no more basis in law than the government's no-fly list, and have never (so far as I know) been reviewed by courts.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#705

Post by kube-system »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #679
kube-system wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a single person going between two major metro areas, for sure. But a lot of the working poor have families and travel to/from places that aren't major metro areas, and this can change the math really fast.

And even if there is an airport, it costs a lot more to fly into a small captive airport. For instance my parents live in South GA where the local airport has three commercial flights a day all on Delta and all fly to and from ATL

Yeah, that's part of what I'm getting at. Smaller airports can be much more expensive and lack options for transportation to the final destination. For exurb or rural destinations a rental car may be required.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#706

Post by fugalfervor »

Vicinity9635 wrote: post #381
yalogin wrote: post #177

TSA has been an elaborate ruse to create a recurring revenue service program called “clear” and tsa-pre. Of course they are also able to monetize the ruse itself.

It's an elaborate ruse to condition Americans to the 4th amendment not being a real thing. The PATRIOT ACT which created the TSA was written by Joe Biden after the Oklahoma City bombing and passed after being reintroduced following 9/11 to end-run around the 4th amendment.

> The PATRIOT ACT which created the TSA was written by Joe Biden

Citation needed. I believe you are mistaken.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#707

Post by kube-system »

ibejoeb wrote: post #633
kube-system wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be... themselves.

You're right. I vaguely remember a faux hijacking (or a real hijacking but not with the intent to do harm) wherein an unarmed man caused a flight diversion to seek asylum in Italy. He entered the cockpit while the door was open for service. I don't remember the details, but now I'm very curious if identification would have resulted in successful interdiction. It certainly would not have prevented 9/11 since those per…

Because it helps the TSA definitively identify whether someone is one of those people who are known threats. Prior to this standard, there were hundreds of different standards for IDs all with different levels of validation and there was no requirement for any cooperation in sharing information useful to validate them.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#708

Post by ghaff »

A number of years back I somehow managed to lose my driver's license between the car and the airport door. Even called the limo company to have the driver look. But apparently. Normally I have a backup ID but this was a very last minute and short trip.

Amazingly (to me) the TSA process was easy. What wasn't easy was checking into a crappy Travelodge near the airport. I imagine if I were staying at one of my usual chains where I have a loyalty card, a manager would have waved away any problems. (I did have photo ID and I was plastered all over the Web; I just didn't have backup government issued photo ID which I now make a particular point of carrying.)

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#709

Post by jjk166 »

kube-system wrote: post #122
t-3 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying domestically is usually cheaper than driving once you get past the range of a tank of gas or two. Also, RealID isn't fully permeated yet - my state won't fully phase out non-RealIDs until 2029.

For a single person going between two major metro areas, for sure. But a lot of the working poor have families and travel to/from places that aren't major metro areas, and this can change the math really fast.

No one is arguing the working poor exclusively fly, the point is there are plenty of people who do fly for whom the fee is significant.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#710

Post by BizarroLand »

caseysoftware wrote: post #274
sargun wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ethnicity are you? I went through an airport -- and nobody else got screened except me. What was special about me? I was the only non-white person in the airport. Upon complaining, this was the response: > Random selection by our screening technology prevents terrorists from attempting to defeat the security system by learning how it operates. Leaving out any one group, such as senior citizens, persons with disa…

I'm brown, very brown. A Native American, in fact.

Same. Every border crossing. Every flight. Every interaction with police. I always get checked. I always get flagged. I always have by bags opened and my car searched coming back from Canada with officers holding large powerful machine guns and rifles in case I twitch to hard.

I haven't so much as gotten a speeding ticket in nearly a decade but law enforcement and border guards break out the microscope every time they see me.

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