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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#701

Post by sroussey »

weberer wrote: post #645
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

>adjusted by inflation So the affordability crisis completely disappears once you adjust for the #1 thing that's been making things unaffordable.

Yes, my father bought a house for $10k. He still says it was very expensive!

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#702

Post by wsc981 »

csomar wrote: post #627
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

In 2024 Toyota in Thailand introduced a cheap pick-up that is a bit under 15.000 USD when THB is converted to USD. I think it's rather neat - the basic model is /very/ basic, but lots of options to customize.

https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial...

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#703

Post by vel0city »

bumby wrote: post #589
vel0city wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the drive trains being compared, the hybrid drivetrain may be overall mechanically simpler than an ICE. A series hybrid can easily have fewer moving parts, fewer friction spots, less reliance on fluid motion through little channels, etc. And then you're also keeping the moving parts more in their happy zone of temperature, speed, and load instead of needing them to operate in as wide of conditions.

Could you elaborate further? A hybrid, by definition, combines an ICE and electric drivetrain. While I understand it could be designed for a more efficient range of operation* how could it negate the downsides of an ICE-only design if it requires an ICE? (Are we conflating EV and hybrid?) * This also means each segment is less globally efficient, meaning the system is less efficient if it has to limp along if one par…

The pure ICE transmission is probably far more mechanically complicated than the transmission of a series hybrid.

The pure ICE engine and transmission has to deal with some of the most stressful times the motor can handle, extremely high torque demands coming from a stop. Its far less stressful for an electric motor to generate good torque at such low RPMs.

Just two quick examples.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#704

Post by etothet »

I recently needed to buy a car and my criteria was essentially I wanted least expensive new car on the market (I know I could have gone used but for this particular need I wanted a new car). The number of new vehicles that start under $20k is slim pickings. There are, what, maybe 3 in the US (if you don't count a couple that are discontinued)? And once you get into tax and title, you're going over $20k anyhow. Plus, with interest rates as they are, I don't know how the average person in Amercia affords a new vehicle these days.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#705

Post by kube-system »

bumby wrote: post #651
kayodelycaon wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota hybrids are much cheaper to maintain. - No engine belts - No starter - No alternator - No transmission(1) - No torque converter - No turbochargers - Regenerative braking can significantly reduce brake pad wear Edit: - AWD is an electric motor on the rear axle. No driveshaft or transfer case required. As long as you drive it regularly and keep up with scheduled maintenance, you don't have to do anything for wel…

CVTs are generally less reliable than traditional transmissions, especially under heavy loads. You get better mpg in exchange. You don’t have an alternator, but you have a much more expensive electric motor. You don’t have a turbocharger, but in exchange you lose performance at highway speeds. So like most engineering problems, it’s all about tradeoffs.

Despite the name, "eCVT"s are mechanically unrelated to the CVTs used in gasoline cars. They are mechanically similar to a differential, and have extremely low failure rates.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#706

Post by trinix912 »

dismalaf wrote: post #319
puzzlingcaptcha wrote: post #261

You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR. The more interesting question is why these cars disappeared in the US. And while many of the factors discussed here are true for both EU and US (inflation, interest rates, manufacturer profit margins etc) I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-ro…

Because a big part of owning a vehicle is summer roadtrips, ski vacations, visiting family, moving stuff. An SUV is simply more convenient. I've also found road maintenance is getting worse where I live, it's almost necessary having an SUV or truck just to navigate the suburbs. Also the (semi) compact crossover has kind of killed the compact car. You get more space, better ground clearance, for a decent price.

Nothing my family couldn't do with plain Honda Civics. If you want more space in the back, there are also long versions of VW Passat and various Skoda models. Heck, SUVs usually have way less trunk space than those - they're just taller than your average sedan, but not any longer. You can see outside just fine, and get around with 5-6L/100km efficiency.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#707

Post by alephnerd »

TimPC wrote: post #695
csomar wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation). If every company increased its prices, then that's the inflation. Customers will feel ripped off if their salaries didn't at least match inflation. In other words, if your salary in 2005 was $50k when Mazda was $13k; then your salary should be $82k for a $22k Mazda3 to be the same price. Currently, a Mazda3 starts at $24…

Salary inflation is much trickier to measure because it is confounded by years of experience increasing, getting promotions, etc. The distribution of the working population by seniority also changes over time so it's not self-correcting across the distribution. Assuming you have a good way of measuring it, (salary inflation/price inflation) would be an interesting Financial Quality of Life measure.

You can use real median household income [0] and real median personal income [1] to gauge potential salary inflation (real meaning CPI adjusted).

The median American household and American has gotten significantly richer than in 2005, but in the 2020-23 period, income growth slowed due to the pandemic and the subsequent slow restart of the economy.

The last time we saw similar retractions were during recessions like the 1990-93 recession, the Dot Com Bust, and the Great Recession. Turns out the "vibe check" in the early 2020s were right.

Tl;dr - the median American feels poorer in the early 2020s than they did in 2019, but they have much more earning power than they ever did before 2018. I would not be surprised if this played an outsized role in voter dynamics in the 2024 election

[0] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

[1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#709

Post by dgfitz »

kube-system wrote: post #700
dgfitz wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't replace a tire sensor without getting it coded. Complete bullshit.

A car on a busy highway needs to know which sensors belong to itself. Some cars are a PITA to program, but many can be done with cheap tools.

Either you can see the tire is low visually, or when you hear a thump-thump-thump you know you blew a tire.

I do not agree with your point. I do understand it, don't agree.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#710

Post by LanceH »

mb7733 wrote: post #689
csomar wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

> I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). A base model Ford Ranger would have done it!

The ford ranger is so much bigger and expensive now.
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