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Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

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Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#701

Post by NullPrefix »

Aurornis wrote: post #549
NullPrefix wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's also a growing sentiment online that using AI to cheat/lie is "fair" because they think companies are using AI to screen candidates. It's not logically consistent How is it not logically consistent?

Because it's a nonsensical reduction and false equivalence. It's like if you saw a headline that some grocery stores were price fixing, so you decide it's only fair if you steal from your local grocery store. One bad behavior does not justify another in a different context. Both are wrong. It's also nonsensical to try to punish your local grocery store for perceived wrongs of other grocery stores. That's why it's suc…

>It's like if you saw a headline that some grocery stores were price fixing, so you decide it's only fair if you steal from your local grocery store.

That's a false equivalence on your part. Real equivalence would be to find out that the store decided to keep zero tills manned and forced you to do the work yourself and go the self checkout. You go do the self checkout and keep a few items extra as a form of payment for the work you did. This would be the real equivalence

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#702

Post by rcxdude »

ralferoo wrote: post #699
rcxdude wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the issue is companies where you won't even get to an interview without a juiced-up CV, and the rest is a interviewing and hiring decision process that doesn't penalize liars. If people felt your advice was the best way to get ahead, then they'd follow it, but when they see people who are just good bullshitters rocket past them in the system, they're not gonna feel good about it. (How accurate this perception is…

This still doesn't justify lying to a potential employer. If your CV won't get you to an interview, then you don't have the skills they are looking for. Aside from lying, you have other choices - spend some time working on personal projects to get the skills you need, obtain a recognised qualification in the skills you need, or try to find some way to obtain those skills in your current job. All of those will increas…

You're still assuming the process is vaguely functional. It's entirely possible for a company to have a broken enough hiring process that no-one legitimately has the list of skills that the first line of CV filtering is pattern-matching against. Which is dumb, and they should fix their processes, but it basically means lying is required to get those jobs, and people do, the companies don't notice because they don't acually need the skills they put in the job description, and things kinda work but honest people get shafted.

I'll note I generally have not been desperate enough to try this, firstly because I'm the kind of person who tends to have a pretty big list of skills in the first place (jack of all trades, master of none), and secondly there's generally enough companies I can apply to which have vaguely functioning hiring processes. But I can't say I look at the way some companies hire and say "Well, candidates lying is entirely a problem with them". People respond to incentives and consequences, and when you have a system with a strong incentive to lie and not much risk of consequences, don't be surprised when people do, even if it's not right.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#703

Post by wqaatwt »

jajko wrote: post #676
wqaatwt wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would flag you internally And how would they figure that out if you lie by exaggerating your experience and skills and not outright making up entirely false stuff?

Its up to interviewers but discussed matters can be checked quickly (ah you claim 10 years java backend integration experience? Ok lets dig deep. If reality is (almost) 0 thats lying in plain view). Also not sure you understand english language, greatly exaggerating or making up stuff is still same lying, details are irrelevant.

> is still same

No it’s not the same. But at this point I’m pretty sure you don’t understand the concept of nuance.

Sure, 10 vs 0 years is obvious. Why even bring up such an example?

What about 7 vs 10 or 3 vs 5? Maybe it’s technically lying but who cares if it works out at the end? What do these numbers even mean? A person who has 3 years of experience in Java can be better than someone who technically has 5..

Especially when those N years requirements are not necessarily put in there by the people who you’re actually going to work in.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#704

Post by j45 »

Was it really preparing?

Because the preparation ended up not being sufficient.

Assuming people doing the hiring can be outsmarted in all cases like this is part of the problem.

Maybe 'preparation' can evolve to the candidates asking AI for a crash course and way to start using it instead of talking the talk.

It never ceases to amaze me that it's surprised it's hard to BS your way through tech jobs at tech companies. Maybe it works with tech positions at non-tech companies.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#705

Post by WalterBright »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #682
WalterBright wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're got a thousand resumes, it is not possible to interview them all. You'll pick the most promising handful.

That's why you lie to make sure you get in the promising handful.

That's why there are leetcode interviews to detect the frauds.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#706

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

gosub100 wrote: post #631
WalterBright wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers pay big fees to recruiters who deliver qualified candidates. Recruiters are middlemen, and middlemen match customers with providers. For that, they get paid. They are not "harming" either, as the relationship and deals made are voluntary.

They don't need a percentage of my salary. Why don't they work hourly like I do? I don't work for a percentage of the company's revenue

Why would they take a percentage of your salary? You're the recruit. They're providing the business a service (good recruits who can fill a position), so they charge the business. You're providing the recruiter a service (being that good recruit), so they pay you in the form of a signing bonus. Additionally, since the employer pays the recruiter a percentage of one year's salary, the recruiter is incentivized to make that salary as high as possible, so they'll negotiate on your behalf in that regard.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#707

Post by exabrial »

rblatz wrote: post #645
exabrial wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I "prepare with AI" by having it help give me hints when doing leetcode problems, which is very helpful. It would be better if we just stopped asking l33tc0d3 questions, since it's been shown over and over again it's a pointless waste of time on both side of the aisle.

I don’t employ leet code questions in my hiring process, but I do think they can provide value or signal. If a candidate is taking the time to practice and master leetcode it does show the candidate is motivated, demonstrates their ability to learn and internalize knowledge, and to utilize that knowledge under pressure. If those are things you want to screen for and have a high volume of talented candidates I can see…

I mean, as an alternative to 133tcode, perhaps they could maybe demonstrate real world applicable skills:

* ability to communicate

* ability to empathize

* ability to be a nice person you’d want to see every day

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#708

Post by porridgeraisin »

mariusor wrote: post #344
porridgeraisin wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with asking people to prove they're disabled? There definitely exist people that lie about being disabled too. Many places have a persons with disability certificate given by the government, so "proving", just means entering the ID of that certificate in a form.

> What's wrong with asking people to prove they're disabled It's dehumanizing, it's lacking empathy, and it usually ends up having people trivialise the problem a person might suffer from. As long as the disability doesn't prevent a person from executing their contractual obligations, gatekeeping a position behind "you need to be able to function in society" is an indecent request to people that have difficulties doi…

> How do you propose I demonstrate...heart rate...bugs per feature...

Just a doctor's note/certificate actually.

> Fight the gauntlet of bureaucracy needed to get a government approved certificate is a chore

Well that is a separate problem. Yes, bureaucracy causes a lot of problems(even renewing your driver's license is a pain), but that doesn't mean the entire basis of needing to prove you are disabled should be thrown away. Everyone in their life faces shit bureaucracy, it's not news.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#709

Post by motorest »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #683
motorest wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on an important topic: if a candidate has potential but HR has no way to tell if that candidate is any good, should they hire him? How can they tell apart a candidate with potential but an abismal CV from a candidate who is utterly incompetent and a bonafide scrub? The problem is that this is not a HR problem. This is a you problem. Why are you failing to stand out and prove your value? The problem with H…

>Why are you failing to stand out and prove your value? Because HR has no technical understanding of transferrable skills in the tech sector. They don't know what a Github is, they don't even know the difference between Java and Javascript, they only know to look for "5+ years of Java experience" because that's what the job description says, that's all they do. I also couldn't believe that myself until a recruiter po…

> Because HR has no technical understanding of transferrable skills in the tech sector.

That's a cheap excuse. That's not their job. Their job is to hire someone, anyone, within the budget and that meets minimum requirements. Their responsibility is to get a butt on a seat that can do the work. Any candidate that passes that hiring bar is a safe choice.

You're talking as if their goal was to hire the absolute best based on rigorous objective criteria and crisp stack rankings. It is not. They look for someone, anyone, that is able to do the job, fit in, and not shit the bed. And they need to be able to defend their choice. That's why education matters, prior experience matters, certiciation matters, and even recommendations matter.

Why do you think internal recommendations are a fast track to hire? Do you have any excuse like corruption? Or do you understand that the goal is to find people who are able to do the job, fit within the organization, and not cause problems?

If you fail to understand the problem, you will never find it's solution.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#710

Post by Glyptodon »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #277
Glyptodon wrote: post #32

AI definitely makes take homes and non live coding exercises less viable (and even live ones to an extent). Not my favorite AI driven change as I think live coding is so high pressure it can give wrong signals.

I agree that live coding is very hard on a lot of candidates. How do you feel about asking candidates to read code and explain it? I had that only once and I thought it was genuinely innovative. Even if I couldn't understand all of it, we can discuss various points about it.

I think if that's prompted well and designed well it might work. But if not careful it might just be a signal that reflects your own taste.
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