Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water • Hacker News Board

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#701

Post by anyonecancode » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:41 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #677

lee_ars wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains. Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. > Im not clear the validity of those claims Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades. > That seems the core issue- without bias from st…

> Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. You mean like this: Fluoride Exposure and Children’s IQ Scores A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... "Findings: Despite differences in exposure and outcome measures and risk of bias across studies, and when using group-level and individual-level…

Isn't this talking about naturally-occurring fluoridation, not added? The concentrations they describe as having an inverse affect are far higher than what gets added to water on purpose:

What the study measured:

"For fluoride measured in water, associations remained inverse when exposed groups were restricted to less than 4 mg/L or less than 2 mg/L but not when restricted to less than 1.5 mg/L"

And what the US federal government recommends (or I guess soon, previously recommended):

"Through this final recommendation, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) updates and replaces its 1962 Drinking Water Standards related to community water fluoridation—the controlled addition of a fluoride compound to a community water supply to achieve a concentration optimal for dental caries prevention.1 For these community water systems that add fluoride, PHS now recommends an optimal fluoride concentration of 0.7 milligrams/liter (mg/L)" [1]

Note, too, the study's section on Study sample;

"No studies were conducted in the United States."

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4547570/

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#702

Post by swasheck » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:43 PM UTC

kebman wrote: post #630

Mordisquitos wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, taking the individual freedom argument to its ultimate implications, the Free individual is also Free to not drink tap water in a community that decided to add fluoride to their water supply, and is also Free to move to a community that decided against it.

It's not a "freedom" to be forced to move away from a community just because you want pure water. Moral philosophy: A democracy should not act as the tyranny of the majority, and governments (local or otherwise) should not overreach their mandate with monopolistic policies that negatively affect individual freedoms. Use the same argument on air and it falls apart. "The Free individual is also Free to not breathe air…

the point was good until you tried to compare it to lead in the air. there are a few factors that make it impossible to use the same argument between lead in the air and fluoride in the water

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#703

Post by __s » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:44 PM UTC

themgt wrote: post #670

lee_ars wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains. Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. > Im not clear the validity of those claims Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades. > That seems the core issue- without bias from st…

What needs to stop happening is people ignoring objective reality just because the results happen to align with the other "team's" position on something. "Out of a population of about three-quarters of a billion, under 14 million people (approximately 2%) in Europe receive artificially-fluoridated water." The problem I continually see in the USA is the ascription of differences of opinion on [any topic] to America's…

Fluorinated table salt. Naturally fluorinated water sources. Public healthcare that covers dental

European policy isn't based on modern fluoridation being dangerous, it's based on having alternative systems in place (which vary by country)

In Windsor Ontario, across from Detroit, they took fluoride out of water for nearly a decade before reversing that decision based on results: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/fluoride-water-system...

Maybe Utah will be a place with alternative systems, based on another thread it sounds like they have an interesting Mormon safety net. But I would hope states do pilot tests first at least. If studies show that the historic gap in dental health between fluorinated & unfluorinated communities no longer apply, then that would be data driven policy

But it seems like this policy is based on someone's common sense that you shouldn't put minerals in water

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#704

Post by hayst4ck » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:45 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #686

hayst4ck wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truth and even the idea that there is objective truth is a fundamentally political concept. Authoritarians are opposed to the idea of objective truth because objective truth gives a person a foundation on which to criticize and dissent from those in power. Truth is threatening to authoritarians. Truth is an alternative source of legitimacy. We are experiencing an assault on objective truth in the US in order to get s…

I don’t agree with the framing of “we are experiencing an assault on objective truth…”. We are experiencing a challenge to some existing status quo practices, some of which have come out of science in the past. But nowhere in any conversation has the dialog been “we must question status quo institutional knowledge, and objective truth, to dismantle the institution”. (That’s left speak, actually, and I am acutely awar…

The fluoride thing alone wouldn't even move the needle or be too worth talking about on its own, but when you see everything that is happening and you know it's just the public things, it gives a distinctly different context around what is happening. You know we are overtly threatening Canadian sovereignty right? Countries are setting up travel warnings. Plain clothes officers have abducted people in public. People have been robbed of due process. The head of the office of management and budget said he wants to put government workers in trauma. Deleting public data sets... At least two second in commands to the entire US military have said he is unfit. A chief of staff said the president said "I wish I had Hitler's generals." At least 4 prominent republicans have Sieg Heiled in front of a crowd, including Bannon who did not put his hand over his heart first.

> question status quo institutional knowledge

I am in favor of this when its done in good faith, but good faith hasn't been established.

> It’s honestly really disingenuous and disheartening to hear people towing this “the right is trying to take over the world and install fascism” line.

I find it disheartening that people are in denial about it.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#705

Post by bavell » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:46 PM UTC

karparov wrote: post #476

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

It's also restricting the freedom of communities if you ban them from adding fluoride to their water if they like to. This ban is anti-freedom. (Just like forcing them could be argued to be, even though that's what you argued against.) So, this ban is arguably reducing freedoms on multiple levels.

I heard they were going to mandate seatbelts next! Where are our freedoms?!?!?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#706

Post by drakonka » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:46 PM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #691

lee_ars wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains. Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. > Im not clear the validity of those claims Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades. > That seems the core issue- without bias from st…

> fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. We can never be sure who funded the studies and whether or not the results can be trusted. Studies have shown that studies cannot be trusted. I err on the side of caution. You're welcome to put it in your own drinking water if you trust the studies. > What needs to stop happening is people ignoring objective reality just beca…

> We can never be sure who funded the studies and whether or not the results can be trusted. Studies have shown that studies cannot be trusted. I err on the side of caution.

What does this mean for you in practice? Do you see just fluoride studies this way, or "studies" in general? If the former, what makes those different? If the latter, what is your stance on science-backed decision-making and policymaking in general?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#707

Post by FollowingTheDao » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:47 PM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #697

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am against adding anything to a whole population to treat a few, folate included. Here is why. Folate is a known stimulant of some cancers. https://aacrjournals.org/cebp/article/17/9/2220/169762/Folic... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13668-018-0237-y https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1463-1318.... (And you know that the first line cancer treatments, like methotrexate, are anti-folates.)…

Presumably, if you're in the US or any of those countries that mandate folate then you don't eat bread or anything containing flour—or you have to get special flour without it. I'd imagine that must be very difficult for you. BTW, that fluoride reference refers to excessive fluoride in water whether natural or added. I've not entered the fluoride debate here except to ask a question. I'd certainly object if fluoride…

It is difficult, but not impossible. Many bakeries do not add them to their dough and Whole Foods has some brands without them.

Do not get me started on the IMP and GMP they are adding to foods now...excitatory purine flavor enhancers in the form of things like "Malted Barely Flour"

https://www.eurofins.com/media-centre/newsletters/food-newsl...

https://www.cspinet.org/article/guanosine-monophosphate-gmp-...

https://www.cspinet.org/article/inosine-monophosphate-imp-di...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#708

Post by kylecordes » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:47 PM UTC

Tremendous boon for the dental industry. Congratulations for everyone involved in getting this through.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#709

Post by agentultra » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:47 PM UTC

That’s going to go poorly. A Canadian city removed fluoride from water in 2011 and reversed that decision 10 years later. There’s hard data on the effects and they’re not good [0].

[0] https://www.npr.org/2024/12/13/nx-s1-5224138/calgary-removed...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#710

Post by mdorazio » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 1:49 PM UTC

lee_ars wrote: post #661

shireboy wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This take has a few problems: Poor people in the US are capable of using fluoride toothpaste and flossing. At least at homeless shelters at outreach things I’ve been to, toothpaste and toothbrushes are freely available. Your argument hinges on them being incapable on the whole and needing a Benevolent But Superior Intelligence to provide an alternative for them. Second, it completely ignores any debate over effective…

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains. Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. > Im not clear the validity of those claims Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades. > That seems the core issue- without bias from st…

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you made multiple strong claims without a single citation or study link. We could have a better conversation with data to look at. There's a decent (though somewhat biased) review of the debate in [1]. It's worth noting that if you read the linked studies there closely you'll find the truth is, as usual, nuanced. Specifically, that "fluoridation is a population-level caries preventive strategy" [which may or may not be effective at the individual or small community level due to other factors]. I.e., good at the national level for statistically significant reduction of tooth disease incidence, but at less-aggregated levels the confounding factors like diet and how often/well people brush their teeth are going to be bigger determinants of efficacy.

It's also worth nothing that 1) over-fluoridation is pretty bad and can affect poor or malnourished communities (ex, [2]); and 2) there are alternatives to fluoride that may be equally effective with fewer risks at higher concentrations (ex. nano hydroxyapatite).

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2222595/

[2] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1064338060067811...