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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#701

Post by arandomusername »

narrator wrote: post #186
arunabha wrote: post #19

It would be one thing if there was a clear policy and adherence to it. In that case, you could discuss and reason in good faith. However there is no such indication that this decision is based on a considered policy. Trump's supporters would say that this is a result of not wanting the US being involved in foreign conflicts. That is a laudable goal, however that is not what is happening here. From the article > On Fr…

The difference is Israel's enemies are easy to defeat. Russia, not so much. Europe made the same mistake as in world war II. Believing their own propaganda and convincing themselves that Russia would be easy to defeat. Trump talks to the military and knows what's reality.

Actually, the difference is that a high amount of government officials are loyal to Israel.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#702

Post by codedokode »

audunw wrote: post #665
gershy wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what to think. Ukraine can't militarily defeat russia or reclaim its lost territory, and as long as it continues to try to do so, there will be war and the world will be less stable. But if a line is not drawn against russia, I think we have every reason to believe putin will continue to conquer more land over time. Russia is the source of instability, but it can't be defeated or reasoned with. What to d…

Of course they can defeat Russia, if they’re tenacious enough. Just look at Afghanistan (against both Russia and USA). If the costs ends up being too high, eventually the attacker loses the will to continue the fight. Russia is running out of equipment. What they have left is in an increasingly bad state. Ukraine’s recent strategy of targeting refineries is working fairly well. Ukraine now has domestic laser weapons…

Afghanistan is an awful example because there was a large number of civilians dead as a result (many times more that foreign soldiers), country having to live through several devastating wars, poverty, and a terrorist group became the government in the end. This was much worse thing than what is happening in Ukraine.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#703

Post by codedokode »

motorest wrote: post #662
gershy wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what to think. Ukraine can't militarily defeat russia or reclaim its lost territory, and as long as it continues to try to do so, there will be war and the world will be less stable. But if a line is not drawn against russia, I think we have every reason to believe putin will continue to conquer more land over time. Russia is the source of instability, but it can't be defeated or reasoned with. What to d…

> I'm not sure what to think. Ukraine can't militarily defeat russia or reclaim its lost territory, (...) Are you sure about that? I mean, didn't Afghanistan forced Russia to retreat in defeat and leave the country? > and as long as it continues to try to do so, there will be war and the world will be less stable. All the more reason to help Ukraine finish the job and force Russia to leave. Ultimately, worst case sce…

> sending it's soldiers with crutches riding donkeys

What would you use to transport items through the forest for example?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#704

Post by layer8 »

ojl wrote: post #670
layer8 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia hasn’t been able to conquer Ukraine in three years primarily due to US support. Now that US support is falling away, Europe can only compensate for a minor portion of it. One important part that Europe can’t replace anytime soon is military intelligence, including satellite reconnaissance, but also advanced air defense systems and fighter jets. It would or will take many years for Europe to be able to provide…

So you believe Trump when he said that the US has given more support than Europe? He was corrected several times but continues saying it, and I see several comments about it here as well. I agree about satellite reconnaissance and such systems though. Several countries wants to give fighter jets, and Sweden wanted to give Gripens but someone convinced them to pause those plans.

I was talking about technological, military, and intelligence capabilities, not about financing. Regarding support budgets, it does appear to me that Trump is misrepresenting things, see for example this tracker: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-af... I nevertheless agree that Europe needs to invest more both in their capabilities and in Ukraine support.

However, I don’t know how useful it is to compare it like that 1:1. The problem with Trump is that apparently he doesn’t believe that the US has strong (or even any) interests in containing Russia’s imperialist drive and geopolitical gains, and to the contrary is needlessly giving up a lot of bargaining power to Russia.

Russia has zero interest in stopping the war, except to their own conditions, which includes installing a Russia-friendly government in Kiev (what they call “denazification”). They have expressed that many times.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#705

Post by thiht »

codedokode wrote: post #650
gershy wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what to think. Ukraine can't militarily defeat russia or reclaim its lost territory, and as long as it continues to try to do so, there will be war and the world will be less stable. But if a line is not drawn against russia, I think we have every reason to believe putin will continue to conquer more land over time. Russia is the source of instability, but it can't be defeated or reasoned with. What to d…

In theory West could offer something in exchange for peace, so that Russia will not want to break it, for example: withdrawing NATO forces from Eastern Europe, withdrawing nuclear weapon from Europe, lifting sanctions, paying a compensation for losses due to sanctions etc. There is actually a whole spectrum of options for negotiations.

Sounds like your strategy is giving Russia all they want so that they can prepare for the next attack in a few years. If you’re on Russia’s side I guess it makes sense

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#706

Post by onlypassingthru »

codedokode wrote: post #696
onlypassingthru wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West absolutely has more means at its disposal, by arming Ukraine to the teeth. The slow drip of arms has been really effective at degrading Russia (just look at the golf cart brigades and North Korean wave attacks), but an increase in long range capability is what's needed to finish the job.

"arming Ukraine to the teeth" does not guarantee the victory but guarantees more casualties and suffering. To win you also need to have 3x more soldiers which is not the case. West cannot even pay a salary comparable to what Russia pays to its volunteer soldiers.

We can both agree that arming Ukraine with more missiles will guarantee more casualties and suffering... for the Russians.

And in response, Russia will do what exactly? Send more golf cart brigades or more North Koreans? It's not like Russia has enormous military resources they've been keeping as a surprise. No, if Russia could do anything differently they would already be doing it to win the 'Special Military Operation'.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#707

Post by kranke155 »

gershy wrote: post #626
DidYaWipe wrote: post #88

The USA stands in miserable disgrace.

I'm not sure what to think. Ukraine can't militarily defeat russia or reclaim its lost territory, and as long as it continues to try to do so, there will be war and the world will be less stable. But if a line is not drawn against russia, I think we have every reason to believe putin will continue to conquer more land over time. Russia is the source of instability, but it can't be defeated or reasoned with. What to d…

It can be (locally) defeated. You can defeat it in wars of choosing, not in a war of annihilation (as Napoleon and others have learnt).

But in Crimea? Or the Russo-Japanese War? Or WW1? Whenever the stakes are less than existential, superpowers lose.

Saying Russia can't lose is just defeatism. With a few dozen F35s and better capabilities and ammunition, Ukraine would likely have won this war already.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#708

Post by dagss »

jajko wrote: post #634
Gud wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely will not give it to Trump. If anyone will get it, it will be the people of Ukraine.

Dude 'nobel' peace prize has nothing to do with actual scientific Nobel prices as they were originally intended, its highly political medal for various political stances and activism dobe by very different people. The list of its recipients with properly shameful past ain't short neither and I don't recall a single one recently which wasn't somehow controversial to put it mildly.

As a Norwegian ... the odds of a committee formed in Norway to select Trump for the peace prize is just zero.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#709

Post by rayiner »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #522
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An actual lasting peace deal requires some sort of security guarantee, else it's not really a "peace deal", but rather something more like a capitulation. If US political leadership didn't have at least some solution for security in mind to begin with, then they wouldn't have been negotiating in good faith. That said, Security Guarantees don't necessarily directly mean boots on the ground, certainly not straight away…

Stop. Dude isn't interested in a real answer, he's concern trolling. He propogandizes his position over and over on this site.

I’m not concern trolling. I don’t want a single U.S. soldier on Ukraine soil. It’s a red line. I’m asking whether a security guarantee increases the risk of that happening.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#710

Post by Nathanba »

jyscao wrote: post #428
nuccy wrote: post #6

Thus two messages for every other country: 1. Make nukes, never give up on those regardless of what assurances of safety you get 2. If you are bigger and stronger - you are right, do whatever you want, international laws and rules do not matter any more Lets see where all this will bring the world to in the next 10 years or a generation.

> If you are bigger and stronger - you are right, do whatever you want, international laws and rules do not matter any more In reality, that was always the case.

>In reality, that was always the case.

*while everybody made sure that they would band together to punish such behavior as the even bigger and stronger combined force

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