Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#701

Post by emtel » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:01 PM UTC

crabbone wrote: post #601

dani__german wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exclusion of "average people" is fundamentally required for private property to exist, one of Humanity's best inventions. Few people enjoy private aspects of their life out in public. It is a completely natural and morally good thing to want your own space and to raise your kids your own way. Your kids don't need to be exposed to the often violent whims of society's bottom quartile for 8 hours a day for more than a d…

You missed the point: if you don't like how school work today, you need to improve the schools. If you are saving yourself, especially before helping others (because you have the means that others probably don't), you are the bad person in this situation, and you should reflect on your ethical position some time, preferably soon.

Your duty as a parent is to your own children first. Not to other people’s children or to the state.

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#702

Post by PaulHoule » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #686

PaulHoule wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullying is not just something that one does to another person. It's the social destruction of self that is mediated by a group: https://www.amazon.com/Bullying-Social-Destruction-Laura-Mar... Bullies couldn't do what they do if they did not have the support of the other students, teachers, administration, etc. As late as college I was harassed by criminally minded person who led a criminal gang that was not held in…

Wow, that is tremendously messed up! I'm sorry you had to experience that. Kind of makes my young adult life sound like a cake walk. Ironically, it was the jocks and the gang affiliated kids who always left me alone. I don't know exactly why, though I figured the jocks were popular enough to not waste their energy tormenting someone socially beneath them. Anyway, I completely agree with what you've said. Whenever I e…

I hate the stereotype in movies that jocks are bad.

There must be some bad apples but mostly they are focused on their sport and the team and don't have time or energy to make trouble, and if they do make trouble, they are off the team.

The time some people attacked me at my dorm I ducked into the room of the captain of the rugby team and that was the last time they came to my dorm. The captain of the football team at my high school was popular because he treated everybody well, I'd say the same about kids who were stars in youth soccer. In fact, even though I didn't feel terribly engaged with it at the time, youth soccer is a precious memory to me because it was one place where I was never mistreated (a group photo shows me standing next to the coach who probably gave me just a little extra attention because of my neurodivergence.)

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#703

Post by geye1234 » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:03 PM UTC

froh wrote: post #605

synecdoche wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”don't breed detached extremists” This doesn’t follow. In addition, there are plenty who fit that description who did go to a state school.

well, the German constitutional court thinks it does follow, indeed, and they are much smarter than I am in their argument: https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rk200... In a nutshell, only schooling forces you to confront other beliefs in a way preparing you for life in a pluralistic society and thus schooling as such is a cornerstone in education. private schools German flavor are okay because the…

Two points here:

1. Government schooling won't force you to confront other beliefs: it will deliver you a particular set of beliefs. Example: sex ed (which must, logically, be delivered from one or another moral perspective; there is no neutrality). Or history, which in many Anglo countries used to whitewash 19th-century crimes, and now goes to the other extreme of ignoring anything good.

Empirically, it is pretty clear that government schools do not produce, and are not designed to produce, children who are capable of examining things from multiple points of view.

2. Ultimately it's a philosophical question: who is ultimately responsible for the child's development? And, therefore, who has the right to make the final decision on this? The parents, or the state? That's obviously a much bigger question, but it will determine one's attitude to homeschooling.

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#704

Post by honzabe » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:06 PM UTC

geye1234 wrote: post #611

ravenstine wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm both glad and dismayed to hear that I'm not the only one who likens public school to prison. I went to school in California, and I would say my school experience became prison-like between grades 4 and 11. In fairness, I can now look back at my child self and realize that I was delayed in terms of emotional maturity, which contributed to my social problems, but the kind of environment I was in was the wrong one f…

This is a major reason (but far from the only reason) that we homeschool. Knowing what I know about the school system, about my own experience thereof, and about my kids' personalities, it would be grossly immoral for me to put them through it. The risk of long-term trauma would be too high. There is some risk of their being isolated (but very low, since they are with other kids three days a week), and a slightly hig…

> I'd rather my kids have a few gaps in their knowledge than be traumatized by the school system

I went through a normal school system (the first 8 years still during the communist regime in my country, so take that "normal" with a grain of salt), and the gaps in my knowledge are enormous, in some cases subject-wide. I know literally nothing about chemistry, except the bits you learn here and there from TV shows and such. I vaguely remember some kind of equations, but nothing stuck. Biology - everything I know I know from somewhere else, mostly from that TV show with talking blood cells [1]. Surprisingly, I had pretty good grades, but it had nothing to do with knowledge - I was able to quickly scan the textbook before an exam and somehow it was sufficient, but there was no retention, I forgot everything after the exam. I was forced to learn Russian for 4 years and I remember literally nothing, not even the alphabet.

Those are mostly just anecdotes - I am sure that modern schooling can do better than rote memorization in a toxic environment. What I want to say is that motivation, a friendly environment, and fun learning are a lot more important than how well the teacher knows, say, chemistry. It is entirely possible that your kids will retain more knowledge, not less.

I am only talking about elementary school, college was different - I loved it and learned a lot.

[1] Il était une fois... la vie - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284735/

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#705

Post by PaulHoule » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:07 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #698

PaulHoule wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principal always told me "just walk away" and I said, "You fool, the bullies have legs". The key thing that enables bullying is your being confined in a space with them. Bullying can leave scars that last a lifetime that will affect your employment, your relationships, your children, everything. Not least hearing complete crap from authorities primes you to distrust authorities unconditionally.

I can see why an adult who's never dealt with these difficulties in childhood would give that sort of advice, but it's bewildering how school administrators weren't (and probably still aren't) trained on the reality that "just walk away" is a platitude in the context of an environment where bullies have a captive audience. It reminds me of how we were told "stick and stones will break my bones but words will never hu…

There is more than one kind of charisma.

Some people have a positive charisma that comes out of treating people well. I'd expect this from the captain of a sports team.

I knew someone who had a negative charisma, who was criminally minded. He was popular among drug users at my school because he would take more chances and thus have the best supply. He got caught on tape selling 3 kilo of cocaine to a cop after I'd graduate. He had a talent to motivate other people into criminal activity and became the leader of a gay bashing gang that seemed to mainly target straight allies because this was the 1980s and folks like that were probably scared about getting AIDS.

I don't picture the elementary school bully as being particularly popular, but he certainly gets deference from the other students. I think of the popular kids in school as being genuinely likeable even if they didn't take a stand against bullies.

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#706

Post by dijit » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:10 PM UTC

nickd2001 wrote: post #655

dijit wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is that school experiences vary drastically, that everyone commenting before me was saying that homeschooling their children was egotistical, stupid and harmful. When I, have a good reason why I might consider not sending my own kids to state school, because my experiences were so bad.

Just because your own school was sadly, terrible, doesn't necessarily mean your kids' would be similar, though? A formula that's worked for us, is - find a school with nice staff, be wary of huge academy chains (UK specific) and above all, seek peers that are very diverse - in terms of class, education level, wealth, race, nationality etc. That way your kids avoid being bullied for being "weird" because there's no su…

Kids are excellent at pattern matching, and "weird" doesn't go across racial lines, weird is the kid who's a little on the spectrum, or not emotionally mature enough their first year to deal with circumstances- and instead shuts down.

It's easy to be pigeon-holed by the class, and it's self-reinforcing.

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#707

Post by zaphar » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:11 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #697

zaphar wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely hero teachers and administrations in public schools. They aren't the norm though and it's a bit of a lottery whether your child will end up with one.

A first step is to properly fund public schools. Then one would need to better select teachers (which becomes an option if teaching pays better) and train them. Teachers need to be trained in teaching, not only their subject matters, and need to be kept updated.

There are a lot of schools that get funded quite well and perform very poorly. It matters how you spend that money. The data on this is hard to properly interpret too since higher income parents tend to live in higher income areas which means better funded schools and those parents also tend to be more involved in their childrens academic and social success than lower income so the correlated variables get confusing.

However I do agree that spending funds in ways that help a public school compete with private and/or homeschooling is a worthy goal. That means you need:

1. more teachers per student in the school. (More admin doesn't solve this. You need smaller class sizes). You'll never be able to afford the one-on-one ratio a homeschool family can achieve but you can certainly close the gap.

2. more focus on actually proven approaches to the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic. (phonics, essay writing, literature analysis, and "old math") A lot of pseudo science has entered the class room over that last few decades.

3. fostering more parental involvement in their child's education. This is extremely difficult to improve but has the highest impact. One of the reasons homeschooling on average does better is because the parents are self selected for involvement.

4. holding kids to real standards and having consequences for not meeting those standards. Tricky to do politically but essential for kids to learn both social skills and academic skills.

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#708

Post by frogpelt » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:13 PM UTC

Homeschooling is another way to protect your kids from social media. If they aren't subjected to forced hang outs with kids who are all on social media, it becomes much easier to control their access to it (or rather its access to them).

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#709

Post by felizuno » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:13 PM UTC

maxehmookau wrote: post #490

wisty wrote: post #332

People are getting disillusioned by education; partly because of politics, but also because there's a good reason not to trust the experts. Phonics and memorising times tables in schools should be as controversial as hand washing in hospitals, but they aren't, and that's just the tip of the iceberg that a very average layperson can see. If a doctor or nurse or scientist says something is "evidence based", it works (m…

> because there's a good reason not to trust the experts I hate this. Where else do we get knowledge from if not experts and academics in their fields? That's how humans grow our collective knowledge. People learn, gather evidence, build knowledge and then share it. The people who have done the learning over many years are called "experts". Those are the people I want to learn from, no? > conservative "evidence based…

There is a very simple rebuttal to this: In almost every high $$ trial the defense and prosecution will both call expert witnesses. These experts will then directly contradict and disagree with each other. Which of these experts should be trusted? It was an expert who testified that cigarettes are good for you, an expert who testified that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and an expert who verified that Oxycontin is not addictive. Those are not the people you want to learn from, no.

We celebrate countless outsiders like Galileo and Darwin who have disrupted the consensus of "experts" and were considered highly political at the time. History simply does not defend the infallibility of "experts", and does support the idea that you should not blindly trust a person who claims expertise.

Everybody should look into the work of Philip Tetlock and consider reading his book Superforecasters. There is a mountain of scientific evidence to show that the more a person considers themselves an expert in a topic the more vulnerable they are to making assumptions and being proven wrong as time progresses.

Re: Why is homeschooling becoming fashionable?

#710

Post by wccrawford » Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 4:14 PM UTC

ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: post #558

wccrawford wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a school that had a lot of good teachers, and I learned a lot from them. But when it came to bullies, the school was just as you described. Worse, the punishment for being in a fight was the same whether you started it or you were just beaten up. If you made the fight get noticed, you got punished. It was quite clear that they had no interest in stopping the fights, just in making sure they didn't get repor…

The only true advice I could give to a child with bullying issues is physical violence - as fast as possible. It is sad. It doesn't take many humans to make school/life/work miserable.

I saw one of my bullies after high school, and I asked him why he stopped hitting me. He looked me in the eyes and just said, "You got big."

He was only scared that I'd hit him back, and nothing else.