The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community • Hacker News Board

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#701

Post by Aeolun » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 3:35 PM UTC

goethes_kind wrote: post #183

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Well, yes, we've doubled down on mediating social interactions through economic relationships. Most of the interactions adults have in their lives are with or in the framing of economic relations. Homes, are being invaded with tablets and mobile devices which bring along with them framing interactions as economic relations through ad and consumer frames. Workplaces are inherently settings of economic relations, and t…

I'm in my 30s but I'm feeling this so hard. Growing up we used to have these kid/youth centres that were run by local Catholic organizations. We used to hang out there after school. Ostensibly the point was that there'd be 30 minutes of catechism doctrine, but we didn't really care about that. To us it was just a the place where everyone would be. I miss that so much. A place where you can just go and meet people you…

We still have like ‘kids community center’ things in Japan, and it’s just fantasic how you can go there and have a whole building filled with kids and toys/books for ages 1-14ish, and all free. It doesn’t even have any sponsors, it’s government run. Unfortunately these are also all slowly disappearing.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#702

Post by zenapollo » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 3:41 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #569

theossuary wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the issue is pedantic people like you who can't understand that "want" is a simple way of saying that a system is biased towards certain outcomes. Capitalism is not an expression of human nature, it's a single possible pareto equilibrium. To say otherwise ignores huge swaths of humans history, and many modern nations which have achieved equilibrium in different ways.

Capitalism is a system built by people that recognize that humans are reliably selfish and seeks to align their selfish interests as best as it can with the rest of the populous. No nation has ever achieved equilibrium but we are enjoying the most peaceful times in history during a time after the previous wave of capitalism-alternatives failed miserably or acquiesced. Just about every measure of human flourishing is…

Measures of human flourishing are rising for the mid-stagers and so globally it might look ok. In late stage countries human flourishing has begun a decline.

While the last 20 years we have made progress on a some acute problems like heart disease, complex ill-health is very much on the rise - Cancer, nearly all mental health issues, obesity & diabetes, suicide. Poverty is on the rise, literacy rates are down.

Human flourishing is just keeping its head above water in these places. Humans are resilient, but there are limits.

Capitalist-fundamentalists will also throw up their hands when asked how we might solve existential problems for which the is no end in sight - eg global warming, the toxifying of our food systems with plastics and industrial chemicals, government debt, etc.

> Capitalism is a system built by people that recognize that humans are reliably selfish and seeks to align their selfish interests as best as it can with the rest of the populous.

You just described mass institutional psychopathy.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#703

Post by pfannkuchen » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 3:50 PM UTC

diputsmonro wrote: post #170

nradov wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a weird mistake among young people in thinking of Republicans versus Democrats as enemies to be shunned rather than the "loyal opposition" who just happen to have a different perspective. Becoming a political tribalist cuts out about half your social opportunities.

I respect that viewpoint and would be happy to adopt it in different times. But it's not as simple as political tribalism. For example - Several of my close friends are trans. For the last decade or so, Republicans have been viciously attacking trans people and several states are actively taking away their rights. The entire right wing media ecosystem uses every chance they can to demonize trans people in the new cul…

I mean, the label of the group is “conservative”. Trans acceptance and the explosion in trans identifying individuals is objectively a change in the social order, which by definition will be opposed by those seeking to conserve the existing social order.

Conservatives don’t have a logical argument, and when you press them for one they typically generate something nonsensical on the fly, but really they don’t need a logical argument for every specific issue. Their broad position is just “social change in general is risky and potentially bad, and what we had before was good enough”.

Do you think that is not a valid position to hold? Surely you can think of some social changes that would obviously lead to catastrophic effects, and given that we can’t simulate a society we can’t know in advance whether a particular “not obviously bad” change will have a negative impact later on.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#704

Post by cpburns2009 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 3:59 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #691

vinnski wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like almost every community nowadays has to have their own Discord server or private Facebook group. Often a deal-breaker for the more privacy-conscious people, unfortunately

> Often a deal-breaker for the more privacy-conscious people, unfortunately You can’t have conversation in your community without them being public either. Saying anything in discord is just as public as on the middle of a busy shopping street.

Typically in public you don't have an irrevocable transcript of every word spoken. The predominace of electric communication and its natural surveillance has eliminated the ephemeral nature of conversation.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#705

Post by svieira » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 3:59 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #672

svieira wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fall into" was a reference to the act of choosing "something other than God" in a permanent way (that is, "fall into Hell") not the act of being afraid of punishment (that is "fall into fear of Hell"). I am sorry that you have had to deal with such a fear!

I 'chose' God for decades until it became clear he/she/it doesn't exist any more than santa, the toothfairy, and leprechauns. So until there is some evidence besides vibes and evidence-free testimony, I'm choosing to believe there is no God. Thankfully beliefs aren't permanent, or I'd still be anxious and miserable. Perhaps you should not permanently choose a god who has caused so much harm for no benefit.

I hope and pray that you are not anxious or miserable and that you can find your way to the path to permanent happiness and stick with it to the end!

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#706

Post by theossuary » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:00 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #569

theossuary wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the issue is pedantic people like you who can't understand that "want" is a simple way of saying that a system is biased towards certain outcomes. Capitalism is not an expression of human nature, it's a single possible pareto equilibrium. To say otherwise ignores huge swaths of humans history, and many modern nations which have achieved equilibrium in different ways.

Capitalism is a system built by people that recognize that humans are reliably selfish and seeks to align their selfish interests as best as it can with the rest of the populous. No nation has ever achieved equilibrium but we are enjoying the most peaceful times in history during a time after the previous wave of capitalism-alternatives failed miserably or acquiesced. Just about every measure of human flourishing is…

I don't consider my family to be innately selfish within the family dynamic, or my friends to be innately greedy.

If you build a system that rewards greed and selfishness (and punishes giving), people will be greedy and selfish within that system. Don't reverse the cause and effect.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#707

Post by somerandomqaguy » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:15 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #678

somerandomqaguy wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To use your example, the slave owner's right to pursuit of happiness ends where the slaves' rights to liberty and pursuit of happiness begin. A would-be slave owner cannot and should not violate another man's (a would-be slave's) right to liberty and pursuit of happiness Except you've chosen to violate the owners right to happiness by attempting to place limitations on the rights that were so called inalienable. Wha…

Two rights colliding is essentially an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. The two can not (should not) violate each other, thus one's rights end where another's begins. Governments are also tasked with guaranteeing those rights, and those who violate another's rights are deprived of their rights as mandated by laws. For example, a murderer (violator of another's right to life) is imprisoned (deprived of h…

Yes they can conflict. I chose slavery because it did conflict. 13 States left succeeded from the United States to form the Confederacy to protect slavery at the behest of their own citizens. And the remaining Union disagreed. Violently. The US Civil War was one of the bloodiest in it's history.

Even today. SCOTUS overturning Roe vs Wade and allowing States to prohibit abortions. A difference because of a disagreement on whether or not a human embryo is entitled to be treated as a full human being with all the same rights and responsibilities.

Hence the nuance. You can look at the same document that says these rights, but how they are achieved and what limits there are can differ due to differences in opinion.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#708

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:21 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #464

bustling-noose wrote: post #62

About 9 years ago I traveled to the US from India for education. Smartphones were still not very common in India cause data was not as cheap as it is today. When I was in the bus commuting everyone’s head was buried in their phones. I thought to myself this is such a sad thing. Look outside talk to each other but the every single person had an iPhone and was doing something on the phone. Fast forward to 2024 and ever…

I'm not saying smartphones are never a problem. However, look at old photos of the bus or subway in the USA or UK from decades ago. Passengers were not having social hour - they were minding their own business, reading a newspaper, listening to music, staring out the window... I'm more interested in the question of whether technology tethers us home more strongly, instead of venturing outside of our homes.

Of course, many people did read books and newspapers on the subway 20 years ago.

A significant fraction also did speak to one another sometimes, and engaged in spontaneous conversations, too.

That fraction has dropped to close to ~0% today.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#709

Post by stoperaticless » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:24 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #655

stoperaticless wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand capitalism as “things can be owned and sold” + “you can profit from investment”. > it's a single possible pareto equilibrium I propose that those other equilibriums’ stability depended on at least one of these: a) small population size&density b) violent totalitarian enforcement c) indoctrination in caste system and/or religion d) no contact with capitalism > Capitalism is not an expression of human natu…

Both capitalism and socialism are spectrums of systems rather than single monoliths so any definition is going to be fuzzy. However, it's probably useful to specifically say that in capitalism specifically private property and/or capital can be owned. Generally speaking, socialist systems still allow personal property to be owned, they just place restrictions on the ownership or private property and/or capital. It's…

> Both capitalism and socialism are spectrums of systems rather than single monoliths

Seems a reasonable and useful way to define it.

> any definition is going to be fuzzy.

Definitely! (That is why I preemptively added my attempt at the definition, to avoid a discussion past each other)

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#710

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 4:30 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #692

harimau777 wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's simply not true. Democratic Socialism/Social Democracy has been very successful. It's also quite possible that humanity can eventually find a new system that works better than capitalism. After all it took thousands of years for humanity to find capitalism.

The countries you are likely thinking if who say they are those things are still capitalist countries with a touch more of social welfare than other similar countries. There are other countries who claim to be socialist but are just totalitarian dictatorships (not surprising, in order to control the economy, you have to control the people), are lying or both.

That's just semantics. Whether we want to call them left wing forms of capitalism or moderate forms of socialism isn't really important. What's important is that there ARE nations with successful economic systems that are better than what people call "late stage capitalism".