10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#701

Post by RamblingCTO » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:04 AM UTC

dakiol wrote: post #277

guille_ wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every culture can integrate, not every culture is a step "forward". Also, your examples are quite weak 1. Paganism was not doing too well by the time Christianity became official. 2. Belgium is a joke country (sorry!) that still has a divided population based on the language they speak. Hardly a success case. 3. Americans speaking Spanish also resulted in losing native languages and cultures. It might be okay to…

I don’t know man. This idea of certain cultures being so distant that they cannot be integrated with others sounds a bit alien to me. If anything, we (all the different cultures in this planet) are the result of a vast amount of mixing over the centuries. We probably don’t notice it anymore (proof that the mix has worked wonders) and we think we all are so good because “our” culture, “our” values. I mean, if somethin…

I've seen this a bit throughout the discussion so let's make it explicit: how on earth would someone socialized in a world where women are second tier, murders in the name of protecting the family honor, sidelining official judiciary systems, putting religion over the state, rape, sexual assault and on an on integrate well with a country that has totally different values (i.e. is a child of enlightenment)? How does that work? We see again and again, that it does not work. We (=Germany) have plenty of statistics to offer. Why some countries (muslim countries btw) have a way higher part of that and others don't.

How is the culture of Talibans compatible with western morale? How? It's just not. We aren't all the same, that's just ignoring the truth of how the world works and is plenty naive. That doesn't mean that these people are lesser beings, but that the gap between "them" and "us" (which is a culture thing btw, not a gene thing) is bigger. And that also means that it's not equidistant throughout. We're not all socialized equally.

Example source: https://www.nzz.ch/der-andere-blick/kriminalstatistik-2023-d...

40% of suspects don't have a German passport while the base group is 15% relative to the whole country.

Opinons like yours prevent successful immigration discussions because you have the wrong foundation. That prevents us from having a) a proper integration discussion b) solving current issues and c) creating a working immigration system.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#702

Post by twixfel » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:08 AM UTC

wwtrv wrote: post #635

noduerme wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

> And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept. Can you explain in what way did this manifest in Sweden for instance? Or have any data/evidence besides some semi-vague claims about antisemitism and some immutable characteristics of European societies (which are hardly monolithic to begin with). It's not that I even necessarily disagree with what you're saying but unfortunately your comment is 8…

I am a British immigrant in Germany and I can vouch for how impossible it is to integrate into these northern European societies, if the rest are anything like Germany. I tick all the boxes of what German boomers would want in a "Good Immigrant" (white, educated, from western Europe, speaks German, good job), but it doesn't help.

I think overall Germans, deep down, don't really want us here. We are here to pay for the pension bill—that's literally it. But since we are here, they want us to completely assimilate and give up everything about yourself that came from our homelands. There is no respect nor appreciation for any external culture, so your "differences" have negative value, because you have to Be German.

I dated a third generation Turkish German for 2 years whilst I lived here and she faced fairly casual racism from white Germans with a regularity that would be unthinkable in the UK. She was often getting complimented on how good her German (it's her mother tongue) was or asked about what country she came from (she was born and raised in Germany). It's a racist country. Don't believe the PR about how liberal Germany is—it's liberal if you're white and German.

And I say all this as a white Western European. It's going to be so much harder for the average Syrian or Afghan.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#703

Post by twixfel » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:10 AM UTC

weweweoo wrote: post #670

Ma8ee wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swede, we have always been very bad letting foreigners in. Most, even otherwise liberal and well educated, have been low key racist. One part has been that anyone not speaking perfect Swedish has been seen as bit stupid. Having a foreign sounding name has made it much harder to get to an interview. Imagine growing up with hard working parents with engineering or medical degrees working as cleaners because no one…

To be honest, it's also the quality of migrants that Sweden receives. The migrants joining gangs or getting radicalized in Sweden are primarily ones who arrived as asylum seekers, usually without much language and marketable job market skills, and with conservative cultural background that can be a burden. This is a big contract to the United States, which doesn't receive anywhere near as many refugees (adjusted to i…

>I think Sweden does a decent job integrating those migrants who arrive with sufficient skills for the job market. It's the rest that are problematic, and they would probably do better in the US with its lack of welfare state.

Tbh I doubt it. If it's anything like German society, which is incredibly insular, just being non-German is enough to make you unwelcome.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#704

Post by iudqnolq » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:20 AM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

Interestingly various European nations turn out to be a poor comparison group for the United States. No one has conclusively determined why yet, but we know there's a strong correlation between a country having English as the primary language and immigrants integrating well.

This is especially true for second-generation immigrants. First generation immigrants are general less likely to commit crimes, but in countries like Germany and France the rate rises significantly with the second generation. That doesn't happen in the US or Canada, for example.

The children of immigrants in English speaking countries tend to do better financially than their parents whereas in many non-english speaking European countries the children of immigrants slide into poverty.

Edit: Here's a related article with some charts illustrating the correlation https://www.ft.com/content/c6bb7307-484c-4076-a0f3-fc2aeb0b6...

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#705

Post by jppittma » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:21 AM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

Why stop at the country level? We could just as easily have ethnic and cultural homogeneity on a global level. We'd have much lower crime and higher employment if all culture world-wide were homogenous. No ghettoized countries and such. /s

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#706

Post by iudqnolq » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:28 AM UTC

wwtrv wrote: post #635

noduerme wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

> And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept. Can you explain in what way did this manifest in Sweden for instance? Or have any data/evidence besides some semi-vague claims about antisemitism and some immutable characteristics of European societies (which are hardly monolithic to begin with). It's not that I even necessarily disagree with what you're saying but unfortunately your comment is 8…

When looking at how wealthy democracies integrate immigrants the English speaking countries are dramatically more successful across all the standard objective metrics like crime rates or income compared to the native population. So Sweden isn't relevant.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#707

Post by ekianjo » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:29 AM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #539

noduerme wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everywhere in Europe that welcomed Jews, their neighbors attacked them whenever the Plague came around, blaming them for poisoning wells. To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century. So you are supporting the point that village rumors led to a situation of permanent exclusion for Gypsies.

Jews were money lenders, which inherently instills a level of hatred.

not all jews though. Most of them were, I believe, middle class workers. You can see that from the meaning of their last names in the places they originate from.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#708

Post by chr1 » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:36 AM UTC

hnpolicestate wrote: post #284

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

What if * some* highly intelligent immigrants oppose American values? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. They may use their capital and ability to politically undermine our civil liberties. Most people globally aren't used to the American interpretation of free speech or gun rights. I don't want people coming here using their talents to politically remove my rights. I think this is a fair point to make.

That's a valid wish, but there is already a large number of people in America who oppose American values. So in principle there is no difference whether their number will grow by immigration, high birthrate, indoctrination of other peoples children, or adults changing their views.

So simply opposing immigration won't accomplish what you want, it will only be used as a weapon against you.

If you really want to keep your values, you need to find ways to attract more people who have the same values.

E.g. Cubans who run away have a good immunity against communism, that's why people who make it so easy to cross the border by foot, made it hard to enter by boats.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#709

Post by liversage » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:39 AM UTC

hnpolicestate wrote: post #284

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

What if * some* highly intelligent immigrants oppose American values? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. They may use their capital and ability to politically undermine our civil liberties. Most people globally aren't used to the American interpretation of free speech or gun rights. I don't want people coming here using their talents to politically remove my rights. I think this is a fair point to make.

This is a very controversial topic in Europe where Florence Bergeaud-Blackler's book about how the Muslim Brotherhood is trying to infiltrate European institutions is seen either as a conspiracy theory fueling Islamophobia or a dangerous problem that has to be dealt with to protect society.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-french-academic-payi...

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#710

Post by andrepd » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:43 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #322

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

Right in the money.

No matter how many decades one lives in the Netherlands, one would never be seen as "Dutch". Whereas a Mexican living for 10 years in the USA and throwing BBQs in his backyard would be seen as 100% American.