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Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

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Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#701

Post by nemo44x »

sneed_chucker wrote: post #157
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled my peers , who absolutely could afford to, still have no interest. These are people making 150-200k (and at my prior job, 200-400k).

The societal norms and structures that promoted natalism are gone in western countries for much of the population. Raising kids is hard work. Ideally you have them young and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. But our society tells people to wait as long as possible to have kids, and to prioritize career over other things - so once people do have kids, if they ever do so, t…

> Raising kids is hard work.

It's really not that hard. You just have to change expectations and lifestyle. I never thought of it as "work" per-se but rather an obligation and responsibility to people brought into the world. It's amazing really. It's probably not for everyone and if someone sees it the same way as doing actual work then maybe it isn't for them.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#702

Post by giantg2 »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #16

Anecdata: I am 31 and have 3 young kids. They have 0 cousins and, on top of that, 0... second cousins? Cousins-once-removed? Whatever the one is for my cousin's kids. My kids are my grandma's only great-grandkids. And I have... 6 cousins. On top of that, at my last job, on my team of 15, I was the only one with kids, and only 1 of those 15 engineers were under the age of 30. At my current job, my team is 8, and again…

"It baffles me."

It shouldn't. Life is pretty miserable for most people. Everyone is too busy to hang out and be relaxed. Having kids makes it even more so. Why do we want our kis to grow up like that too?

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#703

Post by bongodongobob »

talldatethrow wrote: post #323
bongodongobob wrote: post #75

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

Your bubble is distorted too. I'm in the Central Valley of California but I work in the Bay area. The software people aren't having kids and complain a lot about housing and all that. And my central valley friends, installing garage doors, fixing machinery, making cabinets, digging pools, all have multiple kids and their own house.

I'm talking about people who don't currently own a home. Yeah, people who bought a house 5+ years ago are doing fucking amazing because it's doubled in value.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#704

Post by anthonypasq »

giantg2 wrote: post #702
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #16

Anecdata: I am 31 and have 3 young kids. They have 0 cousins and, on top of that, 0... second cousins? Cousins-once-removed? Whatever the one is for my cousin's kids. My kids are my grandma's only great-grandkids. And I have... 6 cousins. On top of that, at my last job, on my team of 15, I was the only one with kids, and only 1 of those 15 engineers were under the age of 30. At my current job, my team is 8, and again…

"It baffles me." It shouldn't. Life is pretty miserable for most people. Everyone is too busy to hang out and be relaxed. Having kids makes it even more so. Why do we want our kis to grow up like that too?

> Life is pretty miserable for most people.

this is objectively untrue with respect to almost every single piece of data we have on this subject. Just because youre a misanthrope doesnt mean everyone else is.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#705

Post by al_borland »

bongodongobob wrote: post #75

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

My sister, in the Midwest, has 3 kids. I assume the family makes I haven’t helped to provide any cousins, so they don’t have any. Money is not the constraint for me. I’d probably have a better chance of having kids if I had less money, as it would imply I focused on building relationships instead of a career.

Lots of people without a lot of money have kids. They value having a family over other things and make it work.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#706

Post by JeremyNT »

bongodongobob wrote: post #75

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

The December Atlantic article on this topic (recently discussed) says the presence of this effect does not correlate with class [0]:

> Although the average number of lateral relatives varies across race and class groups in the U.S., the cousin decline is either imminent or already happening across all of them.

My suspicion is that once the standard of living reaches a certain baseline level (which e.g. even many "poor" people in the US hit) reproduction takes a back seat. This is clearly in part due to an increased availability of birth control and the ability for women to enter the workforce and make these choices for themselves, which wasn't even an option under more patriarchal societies.

I think there's something more subtle there, too. There's so much more to do now for young people in developed countries, even those of relatively modest economic means. This might manifest as furthering one's career, or in pursuit of hobbies, or in travel, or in consumption of entertainment products, or in higher education... or any number of ways. Child rearing takes many of these options off the table, or it curtails and constrains them severely.

It seems like having fewer children is a pretty reasonable response in a world that is more enjoyable and potentially personally rewarding than any has ever been before.

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2023/12/cousin-re...

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#707

Post by 2024throwaway »

nemo44x wrote: post #697
tedajax wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is people watched their parents struggle to raise kids and decide they aren't going to do that to themselves or their hypothetical kids. There is more to do in a life than work and raise children.

Every single parent I'd wager that made those sacrifices and raised their family would tell you it was the best thing they ever did and that they'd do it again. If you've never been a parent you can't possibly understand it at all.

I am currently a parent and still don’t understand it.

Why risk one medical bill ruining everyone’s life?

They aren’t that cute.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#708

Post by beltsazar »

Dalewyn wrote: post #566
otikik wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, your first comment ("Life is a hellhole") makes me think that you don't seem to be in a great place mentally right now. It's definitely your choice, and your decisions, but I would advice to review those views with someone else other than the internet. Whatever works for you - a friend, a therapist, a family member or a priest. Consider this: despite life being "a hellhole full of tragedies", hopefully you don't…

Life is composed of both happiness and tragedies, but tragedies by far outnumber the happiness. If I were to specify an exact number, perhaps somewhere in the vicinity of 9:1 tragedies:happiness. Some of the tragedies are also guaranteed and unavoidable from the moment you are born. My conclusion is the result of a long internal deliberation fraught with weighing the countless factors which compose life. This conclus…

> Life is composed of both happiness and tragedies, but tragedies by far outnumber the happiness. If I were to specify an exact number, perhaps somewhere in the vicinity of 9:1 tragedies:happiness.

> Some of the tragedies are also guaranteed and unavoidable from the moment you are born.

That's a grim perspective of life. For your personal life, do you think that the happiness you've experienced worth the tragedies that have happened to you? If so, don't you want another human (your child) to experience the same?

If it's not worth it, what makes you keep on living, then? (Assuming that you do.) Or do you wish that you had never been born in the first place?

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#709

Post by anthonypasq »

surgical_fire wrote: post #586
beltsazar wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really care about the preservation of the human species. I'm going to be dead in the next 40 years or so, why should I care? If most Homo sapiens had the same attitude, the species would have gone extinct since forever lol. You can have any personal goal you'd like, but from the evolution perspective, the purpose of any living organism is to survive and to reproduce, hence preserving its own species. That's…

> If most Homo sapiens had the same attitude, the species would have gone extinct since forever lol. And maybe Earth would be a better place.

Earth is a rock

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#710

Post by monetus »

bluGill wrote: post #633
Defletter wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild that, not too long ago, you could afford a house and a car on a single income as a mailman. That is unthinkable today. We understand there are ways to be successful, but it's like that saying: anyone can be successful, but everyone can't. I know a lot of people who spend their money on experiences because they genuinely believe they won't get a retirement, so they might as well enjoy their life while they c…

In 1950 you could afford a car and house on one income - but that house as much smaller than the typical house today. You also had one car not two, your wife (this was sexist times - men worked, women stayed home) probably didn't even have a drivers license. If she did she couldn't drive anywhere when you were at work unless she drove you to work. (thus door to door salesmen: sell things those housewives need but can…

> but that house as much smaller than the typical house today.

I can't remember the last time I saw a dining room in a new house, anecdotally.

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