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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#701

Post by stefan_ »

r00fus wrote: post #394
edanm wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely impossible. There is no way to tell who are civilians and who are Hamas militants - they purposeful wear civilian clothing and hide amongst civilians. If Israel were to let them through the border into Israel, there is no possible way to prevent Hamas militants from killing many many more people. (Unless you mean to create temporary refuge camps heavily armed within Israel that would still be closed…

It's really interesting how the IDF claims to be doing targeted strikes and operations while at the same time there is the general "we can't tell who is civilian vs. militants". It all codes to attitude of "there is no such thing as a non-combatant Palestinian" which leads to collective punishment which is a war crime according to the Geneva convention. I can't imagine Israelis haven't thought this through - so it se…

Yes, Hamas not wearing uniform or insignia, a crass war crime, is indeed premeditated. It is the utmost responsibility of every party to a war to clearly distinguish themselves from civilians.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#702

Post by somewhereoutth »

ido wrote: post #48
dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

Thank you, Dang. As someone on the Israeli left I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place- I do not condone Netanyahu and his government and am indeed very critical of Israeli governments of the past decades. But on the other side, my 78 year old mother is fleeing to shelter every couple hours as my hometown (not anywhere near the west bank or the Gaza strip) gets hit by rockets, as do my young nieces and nephe…

A thorough, and thoroughly depressing, analysis of Netanyahu and his thinking:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/21/the-netanyahu-...

Of particular note, and to your point:

> Netanyahu is not a conventional ideologue. His opposition to a two-state solution does not derive from any messianic conviction or biblical inspiration. While many of his supporters are religious traditionalists, he is staunchly secular and doesn’t even keep kosher. Instead, his worldview is shaped by deep pessimism. “I’m asked if we will for ever live by the sword – yes,” he told a group of Knesset members in 2015. He had absorbed this view as a child. His father, Benzion Netanyahu, was a dyspeptic historian of the Spanish Inquisition who died in 2012, at the age of 102. “Jewish history is in large measure a history of holocausts,” Netanyahu Sr once told the New Yorker’s David Remnick. For Netanyahu the son, that catastrophic vision of history has meant that nearly all matters of defence appear refracted through the lens of existential threat. According to such calculus, any Palestinian state would almost certainly devolve into an Islamist terror state threatening Israel’s existence; therefore indefinite Israeli control over the occupied territories is an absolute necessity for Jewish survival.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#705

Post by Georgelemental »

nahumfarchi wrote: post #155
cassepipe wrote: post #56

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

> Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen and state ("I give up on violence and in turn you protect me from violence").

If violent retribution alone could ensure "this never happens again," the conflict would have ended long ago. Instead, it is over a century old.

> Finally, an honest question, what would you do? How would you respond in this situation?

Israel has no good options, only terrible ones and even worse ones, but: invade Gaza on the ground, block by block, instead of indiscriminate airstrikes. Accept higher casualties among Israel's forces to protect civilians. Give civilians as much stability as possible, as long as they follow orders ("if you are peaceful, we'll ensure you have food, water, medical care, shelter; step out of line and you will never be seen again.") Meanwhile, end the settlements in the West Bank, stop sidelining Fatah, show that there is a path forward for Palestinians if they are peaceful.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#706

Post by awesomeMilou »

nomdep wrote: post #679

@dang This article might be “interesting” but so is porn. And both are off-topic, and not about satisfying our intellectual curiosity

The technical difficulties in digital porn distribution at least offer some points of on-topic discussion.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#707

Post by aluminum96 »

jrflowers wrote: post #687
aluminum96 wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, thanks for responding dang! It's like a fleeting encounter with a celebrity. I see the HN policy, and understand it generally. But I am vocally lodging my objection in this particular case. To put a finer point on it: I don't think I'm the only person in my community who has an extremely negative opinion of Al Jazeera, and its historical lack of neutrality on this issue. Having a balanced and nuanced discussion…

> So why choose this source, when many more reputable sources have covered the suffering in Gaza? I am of the understanding that the people posting in the comments to this article did so because they chose to, not because dang decided this is what people should read.

Users should, of course, post on whatever threads they like. But I am implying that the OP's selection of publication serves one particular perspective, and readers should be aware of Al Jazeera's historical affiliation with that perspective.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#708

Post by ramijames »

ido wrote: post #48
dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

Thank you, Dang. As someone on the Israeli left I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place- I do not condone Netanyahu and his government and am indeed very critical of Israeli governments of the past decades. But on the other side, my 78 year old mother is fleeing to shelter every couple hours as my hometown (not anywhere near the west bank or the Gaza strip) gets hit by rockets, as do my young nieces and nephe…

As another Israeli on the left: why are you still there? Why is your family?

I'm genuinely curious.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#710

Post by dang »

bjourne wrote: post #506
edanm wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time somebody says this, I always ask the same question - what is the alternative? What should Israel do instead ? This is war. War is horrible and tragic, and far more so because Hamas hides within civilian buildings and used human shields. What should Israel do instead to protect itself and to fight Hamas?

[flagged]

Please don't cross into posting battle comments in this thread. I've explained at the top of the thread, and in many other comments, why we're trying to avoid that and what we're going for here.

I gather that you don't agree—and that's ok—but I still need to treat your comments the same way that I'm treating everyone else's.

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