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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#701

Post by acrispino »

dontreact wrote: post #472
devsda wrote: post #397

There are many arguments against this but not many brought the implications for search engines. If websites implement this, it will effectively make building a web search engine impossible for new entrants. The current players can whitelist/attest their own clients while categorizing every other scraping clients as bots. If not for other reasons, I can't see how Google a search company can be allowed to push somethin…

Is it possible for them to implement this API in such a way that it will fail 5% of the time or so, making it impossible for websites to deny individuals based on failing attestation? https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/...

From the explainer:

> However, a holdback also has significant drawbacks. In our use cases and capabilities survey, we have identified a number of critical use cases for deterministic platform integrity attestation. These use cases currently rely on client fingerprinting. A deterministic but limited-entropy attestation would obviate the need for invasive fingerprinting here, and has the potential to usher in more privacy-positive practices in the long-term.

I think any holdback will eventually go away because of the "critical use cases for deterministic platform integrity attestation"

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#702

Post by mmastrac »

hot_gril wrote: post #624
mmastrac wrote: post #132

I've been holding on to my Firefox installation after switching back around ~2016 or so. I was on the Chrome bandwagon when they were the upstart (still have the comic from the launch!) but it didn't take long to see how dangerous things were getting with monoculture. If you want to help, push back on all the anti-Firefox rhetoric that amplifies every little misstep that they take. Firefox is so much better from a us…

Maybe they shouldn't have added the Pocket links if they didn't want the vitriol. Tracking or not (I'm still not 100% convinced that they're not), it doesn't look good when your browser greets you with that stuff. It's like entering a neighborhood and seeing a "checks cashed" store.

Thank you for providing an excellent example of what sort of comments contributed to our current situation.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#703

Post by smoldesu »

meepmorp wrote: post #683
toyg wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple don't have enough web properties to force this sort of change. Google can turn around tomorrow and say that no browser without WEI can access GMail, GMaps, GSheets, Photos etc; people will have to comply, effectively killing any browser that does not support the feature. This is the problem with the Chromium monoculture. "We", as generic IT people and developers on HN, definitely have a responsibility for not d…

How are Safari users part of the Chromium monoculture problem?

It's part of the KHTML monoculture that has been harming our industry and holding us back from real progress.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#704

Post by toyg »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #400
encody wrote: post #186

It's small, but here's a real actionable item that you can do to help: Put a gentle "Use Firefox" (or any other non-Chromium-based browser) message on your website. It doesn't have to be in-your-face, just something small. I've taken my own advice and added it to my own website: https://geeklaunch.io/ (It only appears on Chromium-based browsers.) We can slowly turn the tide, little by little.

The issue with that is that most people here will only have their own website or product, which is already aimed at more tech-savvy people, who will already have made a conscious decision to use Firefox, Chrome, or whichever browser they prefer. But we / this site only represents a small percentage. 85% market share means there are hundreds of millions, if not billions of users that would have to switch to make any k…

"We" already waged a grassroot browser-war campaign in the late '90s-early '00s, when Mozilla was born and eventually birthed Firefox. It was successful enough to seriously dent the Microsoft monopoly, creating the political conditions for antitrust authorities to deliver significant hits to their power.

It can be done again. Just drop the fucking Chromium bullshit now.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#705

Post by nehal3m »

nfw2 wrote: post #297
XzAeRosho wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that this feature can and will be used to restrict the users, it doesn't offer any real benefit to you. This will not increase security for the user either, it's just a new barrier at the risk of higher fingerprinting. Why should you care how your bank handles security? It's their responsibility, not yours to handle.

Because they have my money?

Technically they don't. They incur a debt to you when you give them your money. The money at the bank is not your money.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#706

Post by asadotzler »

gkbrk wrote: post #405
UtopiaPunk wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to just using Firefox, people can donate to the Mozilla Foundation. I give a few bucks every month. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/who-we-are/

Almost none of that money goes to the development of Firefox though.

Much of it goes to policy issues like this very one, and to government education about these kinds of things, and to other important efforts closely aligned with this exact issue. Mozilla does both "advocacy" and "product" and that two pronged fork exists to serve people and the web, not massive ad companies.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#707

Post by rekabis »

solardev wrote: post #603
tolmasky wrote: post #197

Mozilla should call for Google's removal from the W3C over this implementation of Web Environment Integrity. "But Chrome has 65% market share, what good is the W3C without them?” If Google can take unilateral action to fundamentally change the basic principles of the web, then the W3C is already useless. This will give Google a clear choice: if they want to maintain the idea that the W3C matters, they should withdraw…

It's far, far too late for this. The W3C is already irrelevant, not that it ever mattered much. The internet is made by big companies. Not standards bodies. The WHATWG has the actual living standards, and Google, Apple, Cloudflare and Amazon make the actual software. Nobody cares about the W3C. And Mozilla is long past dead.

> And Mozilla is long past dead.

I have been using Netscape/Mozilla, in terms of heritage, ideology, and codebase, for almost a third of a century now.

I was there 30 years ago using NCSA Mosaic when it was first released for the VMS Vax system. The only break of any kind I had was with Opera as a secondary browser in the few short years between Netscape 4 and Phoenix (original Firefox). And I was still using Netscape 6, just not exclusively.

They can tear Mozilla (or any one of its forked variants) out of my cold, dead hands.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#708

Post by solardev »

Eduard wrote: post #684
solardev wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far, far too late for this. The W3C is already irrelevant, not that it ever mattered much. The internet is made by big companies. Not standards bodies. The WHATWG has the actual living standards, and Google, Apple, Cloudflare and Amazon make the actual software. Nobody cares about the W3C. And Mozilla is long past dead.

> The W3C is already irrelevant, not that it ever mattered much. This sounds myopic, or what do you mean? W3C is not only about HTML and CSS innovation, but is responsible for and/or involved in a diverse set of relevant standards — many of which "big companies" don't show as much interest in contributing to. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Consortium#St...

How many of those are actually relevant?

The DOM is largely abstracted over by JS frameworks and component libraries.

XML, XPath, XHTML, SOAP, etc gave way to haphazard JSON that's easier to use.

JSON-LD is a tiny niche and mostly unknown.

SVG is used only trivially as a PNG replacement or for vector graphics interchange, while Canvas is more common whenever performance matters.

Aria is mostly an afterthought, put in at the last minute with alt tags and roles on random elements.

Maybe MathML is still used on Wikipedia?

Can't comment on the other ones I've never heard of, but the web ones all seem either dead or niche.

I think this illustrates what I meant by irrelevance. It's not that they make bad standards or have bad ideas, it's just that companies have always preferred their own implementations of these ideas rather than some standard. Over the last two decades, the W3C has been at times a strong suggestion, at times a weak consideration, but never an actual standard. It was always the big tech companies making the actual standards. We were lucky when a W3C spec actually reflected real world implementations.

And this isn't just my opinion... the WHATWG was created specifically to bypass the W3C on purpose.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#709

Post by omoikane »

gorhill wrote: post #307
ailef wrote: post #4

Can somebody explain what are the practical implications of this?

To turn your browser (an agent acting on your behalf) into a proprietary application (an agent acting on behalf of a website) -- i.e. the equivalent of forcing you to install a proprietary application in order to visit a website.

If websites wanted this feature, and the choice is between Chrome implementing it versus me installing proprietary software, I would rather choose Chrome, especially since Chrome is implementing it in the open.

There are already various services that require proprietary applications to be installed, most of which are closed-source with dubious security track record. Replacing those propriety apps with a common web browser is not necessarily a bad outcome.

Personally I am voting with my money and just avoid services that are user-hostile, independent of which user-agent I use to access those services.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#710

Post by toyg »

varispeed wrote: post #626
encody wrote: post #186

It's small, but here's a real actionable item that you can do to help: Put a gentle "Use Firefox" (or any other non-Chromium-based browser) message on your website. It doesn't have to be in-your-face, just something small. I've taken my own advice and added it to my own website: https://geeklaunch.io/ (It only appears on Chromium-based browsers.) We can slowly turn the tide, little by little.

I don't think most people know the difference between Chrome or Firefox and if they can still use websites they use with that change, they just won't bother. Even if you explain what is the difference, 99% they'll forget the next day. It's just pointless. With this kind of overreach, only government intervention and regulation can help. Google is not something you can go against with your proverbial wallet - they are…

Microsoft was the same, and still they were humbled into opening the space for others (with the browser-choosing screen at first boot). If people are noisy enough, lawmakers can be distracted from their payola.
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