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EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#701

Post by kaashif »

CaptainNegative wrote: post #271
jarbus wrote: post #190

Why is the EU able to pass pro-consumer laws, but America unable to? Are big tech companies just unable to properly bribe the European Union like they do the American Government?

EU-based *aaS companies are practically nonexistent relative to US-based ones, so there's basically nothing holding them back from passing bills like this one gerrymandered to (i) companies with a global market cap above €75B, (ii) with 45 million European users, (iii) and an included web browser or messaging app. If they had companies satisfying those criteria, they'd certainly see more pushback. I personally like t…

> I hope US lawmakers retaliate appropriately.

The US has already won (and indeed was always winning) in terms of tech companies. There's nothing to retaliate against!

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#702

Post by microtherion »

shadowgovt wrote: post #101
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

Possibly. The other possibility is it will make it impossible to buy an iPhone in Europe. It certainly puts a huge incentive on Apple to figure out technical solutions to problems like "How do we get other browser engines on this thing without compromising a hundred OS assumptions, battery performance, or user security," but it's also possible Apple decides that's a no-go and it'll cost more than 25% of annual revenu…

> The other possibility is it will make it impossible to buy an iPhone in Europe.

On a practical level, it might not be all that easy to stop that entirely. Sure, Apple could stop selling iPhones in the EU (and would probably close their stores altogether). But a gray (black? In this case I'm not entirely certain) market would almost certainly appear. iPhones in the EU might acquire the cachet of Cuban Cigars in the US.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#703

Post by jerojero »

martimarkov wrote: post #688
Tozen wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite understanding this argument. If you prefer to stay behind a "walled garden", then you still can. The difference being that you will personally enforce your own preferences for all things dictated or suggested by Apple versus Apple imposing what they want upon everyone. The "walled garden" will be your own mentally imposed constraint. Though you and various others might prefer the "walled garden", that i…

Then go and buy an android phone. Honestly this looks to me like I bought a petrol car and I want it to be electric. You have a choice when you buy things. I want the walled garden for my parents so that I can tell them - anything you install is safe so don’t stress. I think most engineers are so narrow minded and don’t understand a vast majority of the user base that it’s insane. Ppl made the decision to buy a speci…

There might be some apps and hardware that are desirable on the iPhone and some apps that are desirable on an android phone.

For example, I might want to use iMessage without any of the restrictions that you get on other non apple devices. This is huge, my friends all have iPhones and use iMessage. I don't want a neutered experience. What happens to family that rely on these tools, mom's that are looking into buying their child's first phone? This is how people become trapped in these ecosystems.

The camera on iPhones is really good, apps like Snapchat or Instagram have always functioned way better on iPhone than on android.

There are many reasons why someone would want to use a lot of apps developed for the iPhone. But they might also have extra needs. Personally, I do have an android phone, and besides the apps that I've installed through the playstore I have lots of alternative apps from the f droid. They're great. I have wanted to try the iPhone because I know my mainstream apps would work better in the iPhone. But alas, there are too many restrictions.

Why would having more choice be a bad thing?

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#704

Post by kaashif »

woojoo666 wrote: post #651
joe__f wrote: post #519

To my understanding, the EU cookie law has mostly been met with malicious compliance; now I get a pop-up window on nearly every web page I visit asking me if I'm happy to accept their tracking cookies. Does anyone have thoughts on how big tech might comply to this new digital markets act maliciously?

The GDPR outcome was largely good though. I can download my data from way more websites than I could before

> The GDPR outcome was largely good though.

The issue with GDPR-style regulations with huge penalties is that it makes it harder for new entrants to the market to operate without fear of violating the law by accident. Big tech has no such fear due to huge legal departments.

Maybe the outcome overall is still good, but let's remember that Facebook (and Mark Zuckerberg personaly) was/is at the forefront of demanding heavy regulations for social media [1] because they knew only they (and maybe one or two established competitors) could operate safely and actually make sure they comply with the law [2]. More regulation just entrenches the big incumbents.

[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mark-zuckerberg-the-...

[2]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/regulation-good-for-facebook...

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#705

Post by dunham »

brtkdotse wrote: post #185
yoavm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, an iPhone that complies with these demands is actually the first iPhone I'd ever consider paying for. I wonder if this might actually increase adoption.

It’s not a popular opinion around here, but the reason I like my iPhone is _because_ it’s a walled garden. It just works, reliably, without surprises, for years on end.

I too enjoy having an extra layer of protection from the companies writing apps. (And the companies providing libraries to them, like Facebook.) And for my own stuff, the sandboxing gives me a layer of protection from vulnerabilities in the libraries that I use.

I think being able to side-load stuff, while keeping the sandboxing (and requiring user permission for access to data) in place would be ideal for me. This makes it a bit easier to write stuff for the device and distribute ad-hoc to friends and family stuff that is of no interest to the general public.

I don't have a strong interest in alternative browsers, because I don't believe any of the developers of alternative browsers will prioritize battery life. But I know others have strong feelings about that.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#706

Post by bagacrap »

yardstick wrote: post #685
cmckn wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's realistic. One example: > Make core messaging functionality interoperable. They lay out concrete examples like file transfer Google, Apple, and Amazon are supposed to design, ratify, implement and ship a universal messaging standard in 6 months? This won't happen even if they skip the first two steps and use an existing standard. Apple ships a new iOS version in September, when this timer is suppos…

> Google, Apple, and Amazon are supposed to design, ratify, implement and ship a universal messaging standard in 6 months? If they all agree that email or sms is the common messaging standard, is that problem solved?

sms is already interoperable... does this law say they have to remove iMessage to make all messaging lowest common denominator?

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#707

Post by FridgeSeal »

I actually think this is an awful decision, and will likely result in the erosion of the data/privacy guarantees Apple has established, for little to no benefit.

“We’ll be able to side load apps” great. Good for you. I eagerly await the proliferation of trash app stores peddling all the apps that were rightfully rejected from the Apple Store for good reasons.

“You’ll be able to iMessage android users” fantastic, now I’ll have to trust that whatever random developer added iMessage support to their android app did it properly, and doesn’t violently leak keys everywhere and sell the contents of my conversations with every possible ad company. This is definitely an improvement.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#708

Post by nine_k »

microtonal wrote: post #213
turbinerneiter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This however isn't a reason for the rest of the world to accept this. And since the power in the market is highly concentrated and all of it is moving more and more in this direction, regulation enforces these alternative options now. All this does is regulate the power the provider of a product has over their customer. This does not ruin the walled garden for the…

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. I agree in principle, but I worry that we end up in the situation where if you need to use a particular app, you can only get it from a third-party store that you don't trust. (Something gross like Facebook starting an app store.) Or course, this is mostly a result of Apple being greedy. If they had acted like a good steward of the platform rather than trying to ex…

- Third-parry app stores exist, the app in question is available on one of them. You have a choice: install it, or ignore it and stay fully under Apple's aegis, as before.

- The app in question does not exist because the only existing app store run by Apple rejects it. Tough luck, no choice, but you still can stay safe.

Don't you agree that the latter situation is a strict subset of the former?

Also, if I were Apple, I would implement a one-click return to "safe defaults", and a prominent badge to tell Apple's software and setting from third-party.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#709

Post by refulgentis »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #707

I actually think this is an awful decision, and will likely result in the erosion of the data/privacy guarantees Apple has established, for little to no benefit. “We’ll be able to side load apps” great. Good for you. I eagerly await the proliferation of trash app stores peddling all the apps that were rightfully rejected from the Apple Store for good reasons. “You’ll be able to iMessage android users” fantastic, now…

Too bad Apple didn't implement RCS

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#710

Post by n8cpdx »

fariszr wrote: post #669
n8cpdx wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment was being unfair. There is one market where Europeans dominate both in sheer volume and in innovation: excuses. Excusing business, excusing governments; an international pastime of the Europeans, apparently. Europeans did in fact exist before all of the listed examples came into being, and so could have outcompeted any of them even if they are now dominant. But I still think Europeans _could_ compe…

> Europeans who know their markets better could compete if they wanted to This is not realistic. When amazon noticed diapers.com, they were basically forced to sell out. because amazon was already selling diapers at a loss and was ready to drive the price "down to zero". No body can compete with that. https://slate.com/technology/2013/10/amazon-book-how-jeff-be...

Americans seemingly can. Walmart and Target do healthy business, despite facing the big and fearsome Amazon. So does Shopify and Shopify’s merchant partners. So does my local book store (the French say it is impossible for bookstores to compete with Amazon without absurd anti-consumer protections).

Before Amazon was ascendant, I think it was Walmart that was the dominant player making sure a small company like Amazon could never grow to become competitive.

I don’t understand the European culture of making excuses for uncompetitive business when time after time the Americans, and increasingly the Chinese, show that it is actually possible to innovate and disrupt entrenched competitors.

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