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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#701
post #97
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterargument, a fake ID is all that a rich person needs to put a smart kid in their place at the testing center. Those places are usually huge, nobody knows anyone, and if you flash a legit looking ID, you will have no trouble sitting the test. GPA and such require effort over years to game (and maybe the kid actually learns something from all that tutoring, who knows).

Some years ago in high school others offered me significant amounts of money to take the SAT for them. I didn't do it, but based on the security arrangements at the time I'm pretty sure I could have done it without getting caught. So I have to assume there has been some of that cheating going on.

> I have to assume there has been some of that cheating going on.

It's an industry.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#702
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you didn't get 99th percentile the course was refunded or you could take it again Plenty of other domains have study programs with similar guarantees where the program has little to no effect-- it's a simple economic calculation: Set your rates so you make a good profit even if the program has no effect (even if you allow retaking the course, students won't be willing to waste their time and yours forever). It w…

>Plenty of other domains have study programs with similar guarantees where the program has little to no effect-- it's a simple economic calculation: Set your rates so you make a good profit even if the program has no effect (even if you allow retaking the course, students won't be willing to waste their time and yours forever). They offer a refund or to retake the course. It is indeed a simple economic calculation. T…

> Intuitively, how could it be correct that people pay thousands of dollars on these courses and receive zero or near to zero benefit from them?

Because the people paying have a sample size of n=1?

Look, any test will be subject to random measurement noise. If you got a bad night's sleep, got lost on the way to the test, had an argument with your parents or broke up with your boy/girlfriend, you're probably going to do worse. Conversely, if you had a nutritious breakfast or take a version of the test with lots of questions similar to the ones you practiced on you'll do better. Some people get "lucky" (for lack of a better word), while some get "unlucky".

The thing is, unlucky people are far more likely to retake the test and pay for test prep. So people enrolled in you test prep class are NOT a random sample of high school students. The sample is biased to include more unlucky people and fewer lucky people.

People paying for your service don't know whether their child was unlucky or not.

I used the work "lucky" for a reason. It is less likely that those negative factors would affect the student both times they take the test than just one time. So someone who encountered a confluence of unlucky factor for the first test might score higher on the second test simply by having fewer unlucky factors--or even just being more familiar with the test, having taking it previously.

> If this were true no one would take the courses, the courses would be rated poorly, and the underlying business would fail.

Your course doesn't need to actually help anyone. Your customers just need to believe it helped them. How do they know whether you actually helped, or whether the improved test scores are down to luck?

Does your average customer have 20 grandchildren who they can randomly split into test and control groups? Or do they have an imperfect understanding of statistics?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#703

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

Many universities explicitly want policies of institutional, systemic racism.

Obviously many people who are in favor of this hateful divisive racism will try to gaslight you into believing it somehow isn't racism, or try to redefine the meaning of words such that they are innocent and you are guilty. But that doesn't change what it is.

So at the end of the day these institutions will bring in whatever policies they want, and they don't really give a crap about actual racism. All they care about is money, PR, etc.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#704

I am so happy to see this. I went to high school in a bit of a backwater in the US. People don’t really go to selective colleges or care much about applying. It was only doing very well on standardized tests and spending time on the internet looking for info about colleges that led me to believe I could go to one of these places. I got into several and attended one, and I believe it greatly positively changed my life…

> huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class No, it was an intentional move to restrict the number of Asians admitted because despite their best efforts to hide it, prestigious universities' data showed systemic discrimination against Asians in the admissions process (see: SFFA vs Harvard). Removing the SAT removes some of the data that opponents can use to sue them. One of the reasons the UC re…

> My hope is that the Supreme Court, now that it's a 6/3 conservative majority, finally strikes down race based "affirmative action".

Agreed, and also favouritism for "legacies", children of faculty and athletics (they can get in on their own merit if they have it). This is a rot that seems to be unique to the US. In the pretty much every other country there would be an outrage if someone got admitted because their parents donated a lot of money.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#705
post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, is there no talk about how unfair the notion of extra-curricular activities is in the US? It is one of these things that gave me a major culture shock moving into the US. Things like giving an advantage to people that have so many hours of volunteer work feels a really blatant way to give an unfair advantage to folks that are already way privileged and over represented.

> Does working help you get into college? >Yes! Having a job in high school can definitely look good on your college application. As long as it doesn't end up negatively impacting other key areas such as academic performance and extracurricular participation, working in high school is an excellent way to increase the strength of your application. https://admissionsight.com/will-a-high-school-job-help-or-hu... It does…

> As long as it doesn't end up negatively impacting other key areas such as academic performance and extracurricular participation

lol

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#706
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Indian education system doesn't care about learning at all. It's all about scoring good grades and getting a job at the end. It's quite important as every individual needs to be able support themselves. However, it's really bad for learning. I'm a product of that. I've been struggling a lot with an online course from MIT but at least I'm enjoying learning a lot of stuff as I'm employed now. Physics and Mathematic…

>The Indian education system doesn't care about learning at all. Honestly, I think people from other countries get that impression about you guys too. I've been a part of multiple (honestly, quite racist) conversations where we just WTF over the fact that these guys have masters degrees but can't solve the most basic problem assigned to them.

I understand that your perspective is colored by your immediate colleagues who might not have the bandwidth or horsepower to solve simple problems, but please note that Indians are a large diaspora globally. If your Indian peers cannot solve the most basic problem, how did they make it through the same interview process that you did? It’s sad to read such commentary on HN, a bastion of inclusive commentary. This is like me saying that Aussies are lazy and just want to party, based on my anecdotal experience with Aussies who are all about barbies and beer.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#707

I don't think people appreciate the radical nature of the attacks on standardized testing. Standardized tests have been critical to higher education and the professions for almost a century. Virtually everyone in an elite academic, government, scientific, legal, medical, or financial role attained that role based, in part, on the SAT and similar exams like the LSAT or MCAT. Not only them, but everyone who taught and…

> If the SAT is not predictive, as some claim, we've been selecting our elites and professionals the wrong way for three generations. Yes, and? The easiest way to understand the shortcomings of these tests (at least their older versions) is to realize that students who use paid SAT/ACT-prep materials and services get higher scores than students who don't. Yes, there are confounding factors, but this fact alone is fai…

> The easiest way to understand the shortcomings of these tests (at least their older versions) is to realize that students who use paid SAT/ACT-prep materials and services get higher scores than students who don't.

Admission criteria do not exist in a vacuum. Since throwing up our hands and saying "we're just not going to admit anyone since this is an imperfect criteria" is obviously not the answer, It only makes sense to compare to the alternatives. I can't think of a cheaper (and more accessible) measuring method than standardized tests. Compared to the cost of participating in leadership roles, sports, learning an instrument, etc, a $20 SAT prep book is an incredibly accessible option.

Or put another way, out of all admission criteria, is standardized testing really the least useful / fair? If not, why should it get cut first?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

> First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants

See also: https://www.hbo.com/the-gilded-age. These are the folks who founded Harvard, Yale, etc., and created the ethos of higher education that remains nearly universal in America today.

> Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

It’s pointless and classist.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time seeing US standardized testing as "better." All of my Korean peers who have studied for the CSAT or Suneung laugh at how easy the SAT/ACT math section is in comparison. K-12 education in the US is years behind at this point from many Asian countries. The fact that we are debating whether standardized testing for colleges and prestigious high schools (Lowell in SF, Stuyvesant in NYC, etc) should be…

I always wonder why these asian countries aren't doing laps around USA or other western countries if they were learning calculus in pre school.

The USA is unique because we accept the best and the brightest from everywhere, but East Asian countries are doing laps around other “western” countries.
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