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Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

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Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#701

Post by irthomasthomas »

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins?

"I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019

Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road?

Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis in a year. I would love to know what his staff where telling him that would lead him to this "very confident" prediction.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#702

Post by klik99 »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #665
bambax wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate Holmes as much as anyone [0], but life in prison (65 years when you're 37 = out when you're 102) sounds unreasonably harsh. She's not convicted of actually, physically harming anyone, esp. patients (which doesn't mean she didn't -- but she wasn't found guilty of that); she's convicted of lying to investors. That's obviously bad, and should carry some form of punishment. Maybe 5 years? But life?? That's insane.…

5 years?! People can get that much for stealing a car or jewelry. She stole tens of millions! Not only that, she did it through fraud. It’s not like you can just build a higher fence. For the system to work, it must be free of fraud.

Just on your last sentence: The ideal amount of fraud is not zero, the cost of checking everything is too high. I recommend the book “lying for money” which breaks down what fraud is and what that tells us about the overall system

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#703

Post by yoelo »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

No post body was provided.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#704

Post by simonsarris »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

Being wrong about a prediction, even being very wrong, is not the same as lying or defrauding.

By 2019 pretty much everyone knows that Musk is a person who makes extremely ambitious predictions, projections, timelines, etc, and tries to meet them. Almost anyone in that situation will have a low hit rate. There's no sin to pay for, this is how he chooses to work and structure his businesses. Investors tend to be very happy with the results. To them, making a large number of ambitious goals and meeting some of them is still very worthwhile.

If you want to invest in companies where they make no such predictions, and the CEOs are never wrong, you are welcome to buy GE and follow their CEO on twitter. He has never, ever made a wrong prediction: https://twitter.com/larryculpjr

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#705

Post by ubermonkey »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

There's a whole thing at work here that basically goes to credibility and obvious intention.

I don't know anybody who hears Musk talk and thinks "that's a true statement." He's a circus barker. We might call him a bullshitter -- he's making a big noise, but nobody really thinks he means most of what he says.

Musk has spent years building this persona, and so people generally treat him with the level of credibility he has established he deserves.

I still think he's being dishonest at best, but the rational world's response to "gee I bet my life savings on his robot taxi prediction" would be ridicule.

Holmes presented herself at all times as deadly fucking serious, and got incensed and rage-angry when questioned. She's in a different category here, I think.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#706

Post by rwmj »

sharkweek wrote: post #25

This will sound weird but I am a collector of swag from large companies that have collapsed due to anything from mismanagement to outright fraud. While we're a rare breed there are others like me out there. Still, even with this oddly specific marketplace being small, let me tell you, the Theranos swag market is hot right now (check eBay if you're curious). Wish I had gone big on this one earlier, because I have a fe…

I still have the Enron mug which I nicked from their London office.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#707

Post by astura »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

Elon Musk has been in trouble for his tweets in the past

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/why-elon-m...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/28/elon-musk...

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#708

Post by kraigspear »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

There is a difference between will have, and does have.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#709

Post by loudtieblahblah »

simonsarris wrote: post #704
irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

Being wrong about a prediction, even being very wrong, is not the same as lying or defrauding. By 2019 pretty much everyone knows that Musk is a person who makes extremely ambitious predictions, projections, timelines, etc, and tries to meet them. Almost anyone in that situation will have a low hit rate. There's no sin to pay for, this is how he chooses to work and structure his businesses. Investors tend to be very…

But its aimed at Musk so no matter what it's an astute point! /s

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#710

Post by HlessClaudesman »

Hendrikto wrote: post #666
bambax wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate Holmes as much as anyone [0], but life in prison (65 years when you're 37 = out when you're 102) sounds unreasonably harsh. She's not convicted of actually, physically harming anyone, esp. patients (which doesn't mean she didn't -- but she wasn't found guilty of that); she's convicted of lying to investors. That's obviously bad, and should carry some form of punishment. Maybe 5 years? But life?? That's insane.…

> She's not convicted of actually, physically harming anyone She should be though. People had unnecessary and invasive medical treatment as a direct result pf her fraud.

Or they didn't receive timely treatment because of her fraud.

The actus reus is her fraud, the original criminal act, and having decided to do crimes she is also responsible for any harm caused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actus_reus

In the US is it up to the harmed individuals or their surviving relatives to peruse this?

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