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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

701–710 of 1001 posts

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#701

One shouldn't expect courage from The Economist, but it's always wise to bet on their prudence. I don't read The Economist for facts or details so much as to get a sense of what topics a current establishment can no longer afford to ignore. The details are secondary to the neccessity that a writer, a sub-editor, and a senior editor with tremendous personal stake in maintaining access to the circles that define establ…

As an Economist reader who sometimes scratches his head at how late they are to the party, I love your framing here. I appreciate their sobriety though.

From the very first paragraph:

>(trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur)

Bigots offended at being called out on their bigotry. The Economist reveals their bias and their stake in the debate by asserting that "terf is a slur" and later by representing "gender critical" ideologies as "mainstream." It's plainly irresponsible journalism and not at all sober.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third Here's the problem I have with this line of defense: it doesn't accommodate the reality of self-id and the likely downstream effects if it becomes the accepted norm. If all it takes for a male to be housed in a female prison is a checkmark on a form, we should expect that many cis-men will take advantage of the situation, thus creating a very real threat of a…

>all it took was a declaration to be housed in a female prison That's not at all what it takes. >Imagine how many abusers would take advantage of that circumstance? Imagine how many abusers already take advantage of the power they already have over women in women's prisons. That the real problem of sexual violence is focused and framed wholly and entirely on trans women is exactly the point made by the parent: this i…

>That's not at all what it takes.

In fact, it is all it takes in some jurisdictions[1]

>Imagine how many abusers already take advantage of the power they already have over women in women's prisons.

This is a disingenuous reply. The issue of abuse is colored by the difficulty in mitigation, i.e. available funds to significantly alter prisons, increase guards, etc. The fact that existing abuse has no easy, cost-effective solutions is not an argument against preventing the likely increase in abuse due to policy changes which are comparatively low-cost.

[1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-05/californ...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TERF is a pejorative term, I wouldn’t use it unless you are trying to attack feminists.

In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. But if we want to be accommodating to those who take offense with the term, we can use the term Gender Critical.

Citation?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#704
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a man, and I don't want to go in to the same bathroom as 5 other men, especially not of they are a group and drunk. The reason is simple: I have found it much more common for men to take pleasure in having power over other people by threat of violence. They are assholes of course, but that shit is pretty common. I would even claim that anyone that says otherwise probably never did more than 4 pub rounds. Or went…

There’s also actual data that black people commit an outsized percentage of violent crime in the US yet any statement like this with “black” substituted for “men” would be downvoted into oblivion. The common argument is that it’s really society’s mistreatment of black people which is to blame for the criminality. Why is that same argument not applied here?

Let's concede your argument that Black men are more dangerous than white men (I don't think so, at least not due to genetic differences). At best the data shows a factor of 2 more violent.

Men are more violent than women by 2 orders of magnitude. And, unlike your example, there is no doubt its physiological in nature

We have testicles and therefore are frothing with testosterone. And it's not unique to humans; farmers castrate bulls to make them docile in an ox team.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports? If not then why not just respect the preferences of trans people?

> > It's about who you're willing to date, who is put in which prison or who is allowed to compete in which sports competitions. > Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports? I assume they're dating.

Still not a good reason to forbid trans people from public accomodations, keep it legal to discriminate against hiring trans people, deny them service, deny them loans, etc.

My point in asking about those edge cases is to say that it's not an excuse for the wide-ranging ways we torment trans people as a society.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. All you have to do is look at how the term is used in the wild to determine if its a slur. Anyone who can claim it isn't is being disingenuous.

> All you have to do is look at how the term is used By that logic, is "white supremacist" (or racist) a slur? I see it used in just about the same way.

It's tricky. They are certainly used in slur-like ways these days. I would say the difference is that white supremacist and racist are pre-existing terms that are widely considered to be neutral descriptive terms. You can use neutral terms in non-neutral ways and over time they may start to take on the slur connotation. But I don't think we are there yet with the established terms.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. But if we want to be accommodating to those who take offense with the term, we can use the term Gender Critical.

“Trans-exclusionary radical feminist” sounds pretty pejorative, most especially the “radical” part.

That is the danger of interpreting technical jargon without having the technical background. It will get you in trouble when you are talking about software just the same as when talking about science.

It might be loaded with denotation outside of the scientific community, but the word “radical” has some various scientific meanings, as other commenters have noted.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#708
post #370

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

From my experience, a lot of girls don't want to become women because it's a shit hand to be dealt, not because they want to piss in urinals and wear condoms. As a young man, I heard a lot of young women say how they wish they could cut their breasts off, be men, rape the would be rapists, etc. Body dismorphia and weird men cause a lot of problems for them and if anyone were to have serious conversation about, it would be labeled as some hate.

Trans women in my experience want have their sexual fantasies realized. They mostly want to eat (female) pussy, not "front holes".

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you insist on calling that person by the wrong name even though you know it's not what they prefer? That seems like a pretty good example of creating a toxic work environment and you should be fired over it.

It would depend on the specifics. There is a difference between harassing someone and not deferring to their request on the basis that you don't agree with it (however misguided you may be). Conflating these two things is precisely why there's a backlash against CRT et al. from otherwise left-leaning individuals.

Difference between the two is very subtle, and in my opinion comes down to bad faith. If the person in question is any good at deception, it would be extremely difficult to do anything about it without some kind of authority. I don't think it's possible to stop the conflation without discovering a way to detect bad faith or making all people respect each other.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean li…

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern.

What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling like they need to commit hard or lean in against opposition that tells them they're not really trans.

To the extent that gender identity can be influenced by social norms, allowing kids to identify their own genders is a way of allowing them to safely experiment in that space without invasive surgeries that they might regret. But if everything becomes policing whether or not someone really is trans, if everything involves policing even minor interventions like puberty blockers, then of course kids who suspect they might be trans are going to think that surgery is the only way that they'll be accepted or feel comfortable -- because that's what "gender-critical" groups are telling them, they're telling them that having a certain body is a barrier to their identity.

For some trans people, exploring gender is a process. Allowing people to feel safe and accepted during that process decreases the risk of rash decisions. And accepting them regardless of whether or not they pass for their gender decreases social pressure that might exist telling them they need to medically transition to be valid.

It's not surprising that mocking gender fluidity, over-emphasizing physical attributes in gender identity, and restricting low-impact interventions like puberty blockers might make uncertain kids feel like they need to hard-commit to medically transitioning. It's not surprising that trans kids and trans-questioning kids would be alienated by that environment, and that they might be less willing to openly air their doubts and fears or seek external advice.

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