Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#701

Post by Dma54rhs » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #62

chii wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of apple, there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, we do not know the true cost of maintaining this platform…

> how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. The "correct" amount is the amount that everybody is happy to pay. If Epic doesn't want to pay 30%, then 30% is too high for them. That's OK -- nobody is forcing them to pay it. The competition you're describing isn't the cost of running the app store ; it's the cost of maintaining the en…

This is one hell of a peak capitalism comment - I already payed tons of money for the richest company in the world, no way I'm bothered them getting that another 30% cut.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#702

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

jaegerpicker wrote: post #411

throw_away892 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic's move (if it succeeds) would have a direct positive effect on the consumer. Across the board. It's not a gamer issue anymore. It is now bigger than them.

I keep seeing people say this but where is the evidence this is true? Because from my POV this isn't the case AT ALL. Pc gaming and Android both are "open" platforms and both are far worse for consumers that the App Store. This is another case of "common" knowledge that doesn't seem to be supported by evidence.

MacOS is somewhat open, and pretty much that is the only reason any sane developer can use it.

Is it worse for that?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#703

Post by enos_feedler » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

Is Epic's fight technical or business related? I can't figure it out. Sometimes it's about payment processor choice, other times it's about the revenue share. Which is it? Even though Apple collects the revenue share through its payment processor, these seem like completely separate issues. Apple could easily let Epic transact using it's own payments infrastructure yet also invoice them for the 30% of those transactions.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#704

Post by hug » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #84

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? I think we should, yes. Not necessarily by default, but there should be a switch advanced users can flip. Re: Tesla, there is in fact a long history of people fixing and modifying their cars. Why not the computers in those cars?

Hm. Hypothetical: if you modify the software in a Tesla, and your modification allows a hacker to remote control it, and this power is used to commit vehicular homicide, how much of the burden of responsibility do you have? I’m not a lawyer, so while I can throw out phrases like “endangering others through negligence”, I don’t know what the threshold is or even if that’s the right concept in this case. With regards t…

> Hypothetical: if you modify the software in a Tesla, and your modification allows a hacker to remote control it, and this power is used to commit vehicular homicide, how much of the burden of responsibility do you have?

If you modified your keyless-start car to not need a nearby key, and left it unlocked in parking lot and someone got into it, started it, and ran over several pedestrians would you be at fault?

Why does being remote change things?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#705

Post by wayneftw » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #472

stale2002 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't sideload things Ok, and if you simply had a setting that you could turn on, that make it so your phone couldn't side load, then you still get what you want. Everyone wins, by simply giving you the option to turn off side loading, but letting others choose to do so if they want to.

No, everyone doesn't win because that exact situation has already been used before by Windows with UAC and Android with developer mode and malware/virus peddlers just started to include instructions on how to bypass those things.

Why are you advocating for the lowest common denominator among humans? Are you sure you really want to be doing that?

If that's the case, take away all the knives, require people to get a license to have kids, don't let them drive cars, take away all of the dangerous things in life so that everybody can be secure. It's just a ridiculous argument to say that we must have only this one particular app store to keep everybody safe. There are a lot of solutions to this. I don't care if I have to sign a written agreement to allow me to sideload things, just give me a way to do it.

People who trade liberty for security are absolutely one of the biggest problems in this world. You should be advocating for people to smarten up instead. Otherwise you're going to wake up one day and you're not going to be able to make a move without asking for big brothers permission.

And, if you say that people have a choice to go on Android well, then they have a choice already don't they? Did the existence of that choice automatically screw the entirety of society? No it did not. So there's no problem with also giving them a choice to sideload.

You're acting like everybody will immediately flip the switch to sideload things. They already made a good choice by going on an iPhone, why are you discounting that people won't also make other good choices? You want people to throw out the baby with the bathwater. If I want to sideload one damn thing that doesn't mean I want to give up the comfort and security of the rest of my iPhone ecosystem.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#706

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

isodev wrote: post #153

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing. The iPhone is not a computer platform, it's an integrated experience. Raspberry Pi or the PC you assemble is a platform (which you can still choose to do, if you want).

That’s a pretty strange thing to say when basically more computing is done on mobile phones now than on computers. Using it as a general computer should be a freedom without question.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#707

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

EveYoung wrote: post #368

paulgb wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s one way of looking at it, but I think the reason the issue keeps coming up on HN is that it feels like a serious regression that we’ve ended up in a world where one of the most ubiquitous platforms is a walled garden. Even in the days of Windows dominance, that wasn’t a problem. The transition happened so gradually that we ended up here without a lot of discussion, which is why the discussion is happening now.

But customers who like to have more freedom can still buy Android phones instead. Nobody is forcing them to buy Apple devices. I think it's a positive thing that we have diverse options for different needs.

2 is not diverse

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#708

Post by pkulak » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #695

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-gua…

I've noticed that if something is possible, your children or grandmother with do it, somehow. I hand out Chromebooks to relatives because of the low support requirements, and yet STILL every time I get one of those things back there are dozens of outright dangerous extensions installed. These are folks who know how to click on the icon for their email and that's it, and yet the garbage finds a way in. It's like trying to seal your basement against water in the everglades.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#709

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #681

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bar is simple: If they allow third party apps at all, they're already providing those APIs, and must allow competitive use of them.

And that will be the end of third party apps. Apple will hire devs to make apps, and then you're not third party, and no more royalties....

That would be a pretty stupid thing to do, like will apple create an app for my bank? Mobile phones are general purpose computers.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#710

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

BrianGragg wrote: post #214

SCHiM wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You install those yourself you know. I'd rather have a choice than not. I feel your pain in the sense that that I think user UX will take a hit, but I think that's less important than breaking the monopoly of the current app store. For example, I can't find apps with pornography or other types of things the high overlords at apple or Google have deemed inappropriate for me to have. That's bad. Apparently apps like Ma…

The problem is the choice is taken away from you though. Just like he said with the game market. If you want to play Game A, you go and download/install Game A's publishing app store. If you want to then play Game B, rinse and repeat. You will be forced to use so many different app stores and won't have a choice to NOT use their app store "IF" it progresses like it has on the desktop. No proof it will/won't either.

You have a similar choice like not using apps on App Store 2