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Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

nytimes.com

701–710 of 1001 posts

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#701
post #675

I'm distressed and saddened at how many of the free speech proponents on HN are treating the events of January 6 as if it was just another protest and not an existential threat to the republic. The president's followers said for weeks that "the storm" was coming Jan 6. Nobody took them seriously. Look what happened. The president and his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and other followers incited it. Yes the execution of the…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#702
post #628

I'm having a real hard time understanding how all the comments in the thread are in favor of this. I mean, even if you disagree with the idea of Parler, how can one willingly support this kind of censorship? "First they came for the XYZ and I didn't care because I wasn't XYZ, then they came for the ..., and then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me"

This also raises another question. Facebook has much more problematic content in an absolute sense than Parler does, even if they have better moderation. After all, they have a far larger userbase. Parler may have a higher amount of problematic content as a percentage of all its content, but Facebook still has a large total impact. So why is their app still available?

The article that is linked here in the NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/technology/apple-google-p...) states examples of Parler deleting content encouraging violence. So it's not as if Parler is doing zero moderation. But it is clear that Facebook and Twitter are not perfect (or even consistent) in their moderation. So where's the threshold for when the unmoderated posts cause you to get deplatformed? That line seems arbitrary to me. It also seems like an unfair line since Parler has only 30 employees. If the response to censorship is "go build your own social network", then surely there needs to be allowance for small social networks that face a sudden influx of new users and traffic. Most users of Parler, and most content, is not problematic.

The same question should be asked when it comes to Twitter banning Trump's account. Twitter's own blog post (https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio...) does not make a great case for proving Trump was inciting violence - certainly none of the quoted info (like Trump choosing to skip the inauguration) would pass the bar necessary for a court to prove incitement. But a more basic issue here is that the vast majority of those who turned up in DC to support Trump and see him speak did not participate in the riot. Per various sources (example https://www.localdvm.com/news/washington-dc/three-demonstrat...) there were tens of thousands of attendees to the recent DC marches, across several fully-legal fully-permitted events. Out of all that, a few hundred raided the capitol. So if a small percentage of your followers engage in criminal activity, is that cause for a ban? And if that is the case, why wouldn't the same apply to other politicians or activists or social media figures? Why do BLM-affiliated events get a pass, with the criminal elements written off as a small fringe?

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#703
post #4

It must feel pretty surreal to be someone that is constantly moving to different communication apps and instantly finding them pulled by anyone and everyone. We've seen an escalation of this from higher-level platforms (obviously Twitter can ban an account if they desire) to medium-level platforms (I suppose Apple gets to pick what I can do on my own phone even if it feels a bit wrong), but I'm curious if this will a…

Family and friends I haven’t talked to in 10+ years are calling and texting me. Giving me current addresses. Making sure everyone has paper maps in case things get worse. These are people that don’t normally follow politics at all.

A lot of of people are freaking out.

Never seen anything like this here. Feels like Arab Springs.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#704
post #628

I'm having a real hard time understanding how all the comments in the thread are in favor of this. I mean, even if you disagree with the idea of Parler, how can one willingly support this kind of censorship? "First they came for the XYZ and I didn't care because I wasn't XYZ, then they came for the ..., and then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me"

It’s not censorship when people are planning to overthrow the government and planning mass-murder.

Sure, sharing weird QAnon memes and Trump worship... I don’t care. That’s the equivalent of Fox News. But using it as a base of communication to overtly threaten to kill members of government (even ones I didn’t vote for) is crossing the line. From the article, there were hundreds if not thousands of users posting plans to regroup and bring guns and bombs to the Capitol with definite coordination between them all. It’s no longer a free-speech issue.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#706
post #628

I'm having a real hard time understanding how all the comments in the thread are in favor of this. I mean, even if you disagree with the idea of Parler, how can one willingly support this kind of censorship? "First they came for the XYZ and I didn't care because I wasn't XYZ, then they came for the ..., and then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me"

Anyone is free to set up a computer in their basement, install a web server, open up port 80 to the world, and serve to the world whatever blog or forum they want. This is the beauty of the web. They can scale it up as traffic grows and deal with all those headaches if they want. I fully support the owners of Parler if they want to do this.

Twitter, FB, AWS, Google eventually came along and said “ok, you want to share your ideas or host a community, we can make that really easy with our tools and platforms!” You can post what you want without worrying about servers in your basement. But in exchange for that convenience you have to accept that they reserve the right to terminate the contract at any time. They should not be required to help you promote ideas that they deem harmful or toxic.

So Parler can go back to how we used to do things in the 90s...it’s a little harder but not that hard. No one is being censored. This is simply a few companies deciding to terminate a relationship with one of their clients.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#707
post #675

I'm distressed and saddened at how many of the free speech proponents on HN are treating the events of January 6 as if it was just another protest and not an existential threat to the republic. The president's followers said for weeks that "the storm" was coming Jan 6. Nobody took them seriously. Look what happened. The president and his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and other followers incited it. Yes the execution of the…

> not an existential threat to the republic.

Because it wasn't. Not even close. Snowden materials demonstrated a threat to the republic.

This is nothing by comparison.

Inexplicably lax security allowed a mob to get access to the Capitol building and break the windows and fight and take selfies with police (including a few tragic deaths), a bad situation that was corrected within hours.

It's like saying the protests of Summer 2020 put Minneapolis in existential danger, or Seattle in existential danger.

> If they even TRY to replace RBG we burn the entire fucking thing down.

> Sep 18, 2020 https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status/1307107507131875330

You could make such wild claims (and many on the other side HAVE), but hopefully most people understand that for what it actually is.

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There's so much exaggeration and hyperbole on all sides, and this just proves provides more evidence for conspiracy theories. It might be your moral right to fan the flames of this fire, but I wish you wouldn't.

The solution to bad speech is more speech, not less.

EDIT: And let's say you're right, that there's large amounts of open unironic sedition in the US. I doubt forcing it onto Gab or elsewhere is really a net win.

Revolutions happen when people believe they do not have a voice. It's mindboggling to think that removing people's ability to speak is going to make people less violent.

You're taking away their peaceable recourse and leaving them with unpeaceable options. What do you think is going to happen??

That just so backwards from what should be the goal. Proponents of free-speech intuitively realize this.

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WHAT WAS WORSE: The Reichstag fire, or the reaction to it?

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#708
post #675

I'm distressed and saddened at how many of the free speech proponents on HN are treating the events of January 6 as if it was just another protest and not an existential threat to the republic. The president's followers said for weeks that "the storm" was coming Jan 6. Nobody took them seriously. Look what happened. The president and his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and other followers incited it. Yes the execution of the…

If you are so afraid of some ephemeral threat, tell us, did you support mail in voting and ignoring state election laws? Because if you are not worried about that, then you really don't give a shit about this country.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#709
post #164

The same folks who think you can't force a bakery to bake a gay cake want to force Apple to distribute an app or Twitter to publish anyone's nonsense. You can't have it both ways. For the self-proclaimed free-marketers, how is this different? It's about scale. We have an antitrust issue, not a free speech issue.

I've heard a few references to the Masteriece Cakeshop decision in a few social medial channels I'm on (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colora...).

I think the comparison is pretty unhelpful. At stake in that case, and those on the right, was a concern of being coerced into violating one's religious beliefs because of Colorado's anti-discrimination law. The legal arguments at the time were if it violated the cake shop's 1st amendment rights of free exercise of religion.

In today's context there is no anti-discrimination law for the likes of Parler, nor is there a concern that being forced to keep an app like Parler online would violate any constitutionally protected rights of these service providers should a statute ever be passed that did.

Those backing the cake shop decision did largely for the free exercise of religion, not an appeal to the free market.

Disclaimer: I didn't think a cake shop should be allowed to deny service because it's for a gay wedding.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#710
post #525

This is why telecommunications companies sign decades long leases at colo facilities. Because everyone who's worked at 111 eighth avenue knows what happens when big tech wants you out. There's no lease for cloud infrastructure and I don't know what collective psychosis made operations folks think that's a good idea. Was Amazon even obliged to give them 24-hours on the eviction notice? That sounds like just enough tim…

> This is why telecommunications companies sign decades long leases at colo facilities.

Agree, but the messaging so far is well into "you violated our acceptable use policy which would nullify our lease if we had one" territory. Even telecom leases have carve-outs for "abuse", which is always defined in sufficiently vague terms.

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