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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#701

Post by jcranmer »

smileypete wrote: post #675
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

> The EU council could have offered some reasonable concessions in order to remain, both before and after the referendum, but nada.

The essential problem with the Brexit movement is that it's based not on what the EU is but on the distorted view on what the EU is. When you start tackling the specific complaints that people had, it often turns out that it was the British government who had the power to alter the policies, not the EU. (For example, Britain deciding to let in Polish migrant workers after Poland joined the EU in 2004, unlike every other major country in the EU). The EU even conceded that Britain had a perpetual right to opt out of "ever-closer union."

So what could the EU have conceded that would have convinced the die-hard Brexiteers to opt for Remain?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#702

Post by jcranmer »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #700
Aeolun wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you expect them to do? The UK wants to leave, so lets give them some concessions to soften their stupidity? From the start the only one with any kind of power in the negotiations was the EU.

More a case of UK politicians not doing their job. What do I expect them to do? Act solely in the interests of their pay packet and party. What should they do? Act in the interests of the nation. That was once supposed to be the point. They could have sought concessions or adjustments from the EU as precursor to a second referendum. The few times another EU nation has rejected a treaty or some aspect of the Union the…

> They could have sought concessions or adjustments from the EU as precursor to a second referendum.

Do people really forget David Cameron's renegotiation prior to the referendum that quickly?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#703

Post by kabacha »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #699

I guess one thing that many people are missing is why the "leave" vote won in the first place. If Europe is so great why did some people had the desire to leave it? Surely they were not all brainwashed or lobotomized? The EU is now trying to make the UK pay an extraordinary price in order to warn the other countries that leaving the EU is not a choice to be taken lightly. This kind of technique is known as bullying a…

> The EU has had low economic growth for the last 15 years, high unemployment, flooded by migrants, non-stop terrorist attack

> NON-STOP TERRORIST ATTACKS

Lol, you lost any credibility you had after this sentence. Go back under your bridge, troll.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#704

Post by NeedMoreTea »

microcolonel wrote: post #663
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

Whichever way one voted, we were sold a pup. Both sides lied. Which makes the case and result, either way, rather academic.

Farage admitted the morning after the result that the £350m a week to the NHS was a lie. A promise that undoubtedly had considerable impact with the current austerity NHS funding crisis.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#705

Post by njarboe »

wahern wrote: post #644
njarboe wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of a following the results of a non-binding referendum that 52% of the people that voted passed for such a major thing as leaving the EU seems quite strange to my American eyes. I would think something as major as joining the EU should have required a super-majority of people voting for it in and a super-majority to leave. Like a US constitutional amendment. I need to read more English history to under…

Parliamentary Supremacy: Parliament has the last word on all constitutional matters, whether written or unwritten, and in any event can change any inconvenient aspects of the written constitution (e.g. historical bills and charters) with a simple majority. Historically the House of Lords provided a check on populist sentiment in the House of Commons, but the powers of the House of Lords have slowly been diminished ov…

So total power, basically, but limited by custom and decorum. If Parliament says that the majority vote on a referendum with decide what they will do, then that can be the way it is. Parliament can also change its mind afterword and not do it, but that would be unlikely as it is not the expected way of behaving.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#706

Post by NeedMoreTea »

jcranmer wrote: post #702
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More a case of UK politicians not doing their job. What do I expect them to do? Act solely in the interests of their pay packet and party. What should they do? Act in the interests of the nation. That was once supposed to be the point. They could have sought concessions or adjustments from the EU as precursor to a second referendum. The few times another EU nation has rejected a treaty or some aspect of the Union the…

> They could have sought concessions or adjustments from the EU as precursor to a second referendum. Do people really forget David Cameron's renegotiation prior to the referendum that quickly?

Not forget, more deem not worth mentioning. Promise the earth and moon, deliver nothing of note.

He came out of that looking the fool and if anything actually helped the leave campaign.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#707

Post by microcolonel »

Aeolun wrote: post #696
microcolonel wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. The EU is not being asked to accept any trade deal at all (hence no deal).…

As far as I understand it. It won’t be an immediate catastrophe, it’ll just slowly leech the UK influence worldwide and in Europe.

I think that Brexit is more about promoting the UK's influence in the UK, than about promoting it outside the UK.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#708

Post by smileypete »

jcranmer wrote: post #701
smileypete wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

> The EU council could have offered some reasonable concessions in order to remain, both before and after the referendum, but nada. The essential problem with the Brexit movement is that it's based not on what the EU is but on the distorted view on what the EU is. When you start tackling the specific complaints that people had, it often turns out that it was the British government who had the power to alter the polic…

>So what could the EU have conceded that would have convinced the die-hard Brexiteers to opt for Remain?

All it would have taken is to swing the referendum result by a few percentage points.

Some moves towards reforming the EU to make it more democratic could have been welcome.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#709

Post by asabjorn »

dTal wrote: post #669
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot.

It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies.

It is interesting that all opposition to the predominant narrative really should be better informed, and listen to the ones that know better.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#710

Post by noja »

jpfr wrote: post #405
benmmurphy wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a ridiculous claim. Are you saying the UK is going to stop food coming across its border when it is to the clear benefit of it's citizens? That is ridiculous. The UK will suspend ALL customs operations before it does that. The bureaucratic state is kind of broken but not that broken.

Everybody will try to get as much food over the border as possible. Everybody will work together. The EU, the UK, the US, everybody. But this could still go very very bad. What do you think "chaos at the border" means? Every truck, train and ship has to get the papers checked where they could just drive through before. But there are not enough qualified officers to actually check all the papers. So goods will come in…

> But there are not enough qualified officers to actually check all the papers.

Starve (and therefore internal anarchy) versus upholding a paperwork check?

The papers won't be checked.

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