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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#701

Post by qb45 »

watwut wrote: post #694
mpweiher wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand the meaning of "for yourself", right? It exactly means standing up, well, for yourself, and not relying on or waiting for others.

If you stand up and get punished and ostracised/mocked as a result then standing up did you no good. You will learn not to do it. Stand up thing worked great in this story. I trust you that your relative could suceed in standing up instead of being treated as crazy bad women. A lot of it is residuum from old times when gender roles were different and some of both genders keep going old way. Her existence does not exc…

> crazy bad women

This stereotype doesn't come from nowhere.

I found a video of this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er7qPv8jsZo

This "push to Hubeny's field of expertise" seems to start at 1:02:00, "let her speak" is at 1:05:35.

The OP's account is overdramatized and sometimes plain wrong, like the suggestion that Holt didn't let Hubeny speak at all for these three minutes (she had two long blocks) or that there was a dead silence after the OP spoke up (there wasn't). And that's a part of the problem: feminism is routinely being represented by individuals whose subjective perception of events seems to diverge from what others see. FWIW.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#702

Post by qb45 »

mpweiher wrote: post #700
watwut wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stand up and get punished and ostracised/mocked as a result then standing up did you no good. You will learn not to do it. Stand up thing worked great in this story. I trust you that your relative could suceed in standing up instead of being treated as crazy bad women. A lot of it is residuum from old times when gender roles were different and some of both genders keep going old way. Her existence does not exc…

You don't appear to understand the concept of "standing up for yourself". It fundamentally includes "in the face of adversity". And that means that you do it well knowing that there can and likely will be negative consequences. If you only do it under a guarantee of no repercussions, then you're not standing up...for anything, really.

Everybody knows what it means, but there are people who are too scared to try. Nobody should really have "a guarantee of no repercussions" when throwing accusations around but at the same time there exist people who could use more support to deal with situations when bad things are happening to them.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#703

Post by mpweiher »

qb45 wrote: post #701
watwut wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stand up and get punished and ostracised/mocked as a result then standing up did you no good. You will learn not to do it. Stand up thing worked great in this story. I trust you that your relative could suceed in standing up instead of being treated as crazy bad women. A lot of it is residuum from old times when gender roles were different and some of both genders keep going old way. Her existence does not exc…

> crazy bad women This stereotype doesn't come from nowhere. I found a video of this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er7qPv8jsZo This "push to Hubeny's field of expertise" seems to start at 1:02:00, "let her speak" is at 1:05:35. The OP's account is overdramatized and sometimes plain wrong, like the suggestion that Holt didn't let Hubeny speak at all for these three minutes (she had two long blocks) or that the…

Exactly. And when that is pointed out, they chalk it up to "oppression", like any other kind of criticism. Nice little self-reinformcent mechanism that easily leads to completely decoupling yourself from reality.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#704

Post by ixr »

Started reading her post, got to "The panel was made up of 5 men and 1 woman." and the agenda instantly became clear. Finished reading, in a masochistic attempt to confirm my suspicion and indeed, I was right. Give. Me. A. Break.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#705

Post by natch »

randomguy23 wrote: post #455
natch wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything will look like sexism, including real sexism. This is like basic thinking skills 101 here. Let's simplify. Let's say you perceive two rocks, one real and one fake. Just because the fake rock is not real, does not mean the real rock is not real. You're right, perception shapes reality. But apart from perception shaping reality, there is also an underlying reality beyond perception. A real rock is real. In t…

The thing is, a lot of sexists may be doing it for the reaction from the target - with no reaction, the sexist doesn't get that 'thrill' that they would otherwise get. If the reward is consistently denied, the behaviour may (may) go away.

Sounds like you are talking about trolls. I agree those exist but I think it's safe to assume they are a small subset of sexists.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#706

Post by monksy »

monksy wrote: post #698
vog wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, "heckler" has negative connotation, while the interruption itself was helpful and to the point. Second, attaching such an attribute at all to that person was inappropriate, given she pointed out an obvious misbehaviour of the moderator. An appropriate reaction would have been: "Oh, I didn't notice. Thanks for pointing this out!"

The emotional attachment was added by the listener/reader of the word. > Second, attaching such an attribute at all to that person was inappropriate, given she pointed out an obvious misbehaviour of the moderator. That is an assumption based on your emotional connection to the word. No one believes that the moderator's behavior was "bad" (different attributions have been made) > An appropriate reaction would have bee…

> No one believes that the moderator's behavior was "bad" (different attributions have been made)

Err meant to say: No one believes that the heckler's behavior was "bad" (different attributions have been made)

Re: “Let her speak please”

#707

Post by okreallywtf »

weberc2 wrote: post #669
okreallywtf wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, it needs to be talked about and I would say most of the stigma comes from other men (though surely not all).

I mean, the stigma has probably been around for tens of thousands of years in the form of masculinity. Bravery and courage probably evolved because men had to do all of the risky hunting and defense and so societies which rewarded make sacrifice and success flourished and the others largely died out.

Agreed, but that doesn't necessarily have as much of a place in modern society or at least there are limits to how many jobs/lifestyles reward those traits. In the same way that women can be frustrated by an unattainable feminine ideal portrayed by media, men face the same dilemma at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#708

Post by xor1 »

vog wrote: post #660
monksy wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was aggressive. The statement was a command (followed by a desperate request) deriding the behavior and speech of the moderator. Why do you feel that calling the person who interjected a "heckler" is a bad thing?

First, "heckler" has negative connotation, while the interruption itself was helpful and to the point. Second, attaching such an attribute at all to that person was inappropriate, given she pointed out an obvious misbehaviour of the moderator. An appropriate reaction would have been: "Oh, I didn't notice. Thanks for pointing this out!"

Have you ever been on stage? Have you ever interacted with an audience member who has addressed you in a way similar to what happened here?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#709

Post by watwut »

mpweiher wrote: post #700
watwut wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stand up and get punished and ostracised/mocked as a result then standing up did you no good. You will learn not to do it. Stand up thing worked great in this story. I trust you that your relative could suceed in standing up instead of being treated as crazy bad women. A lot of it is residuum from old times when gender roles were different and some of both genders keep going old way. Her existence does not exc…

You don't appear to understand the concept of "standing up for yourself". It fundamentally includes "in the face of adversity". And that means that you do it well knowing that there can and likely will be negative consequences. If you only do it under a guarantee of no repercussions, then you're not standing up...for anything, really.

Nope it does not. Standing for yourself in those situation is about hurting opponent so that he does not try again. That is what men actually do - they are surely as hell less likely to stand up to the boss - such behavior is quite rare. If you succeed, you successfully stood for yourself regardless of whether there were risks or not. It is also a lot about acting aggressive before there was the actual need, to prevent the situation from even happening.

If women have to learn to stand up for themselves as you imply they should, they need to find a way to hurt people who treat them the way they don't like.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#710

Post by Sharon_Barnden »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #473
jasonshen wrote: post #11

Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite. This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It's one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, "not all men" do this, but th…

People get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations across tens of businesses. I don't get the constant refrain that this is a male vs. female thing.

Yes they do Ryan. And it's something we need to stop. In this particular case though the female expert was asked a question related to her own very specialised area of expertise by the male host, AND then the person asking the question (a) answered on her behalf, (b) then talked over her when she tried to answer, and (c) then made fun of her when her response was to laugh at the absurdity of the situation. Truly appalling especially when for over an hour the other all male members of the panel had spoken at length without interruption.
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