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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#701

Post by gnaritas »

specialist wrote: post #640
brightball wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By bipartisan support, I mean that if you want to get a basic income to appeal to people on the right you can appeal to existing branding. FairTax is just a basic income with a smaller stipend. Brand it that way. When you co-brand it with the ability to gut a lot of existing federal programs so that they can be reformed without inducing panic that will also garner support. Consumption tax paired with a BI would signi…

"if you want to get a basic income to appeal to people on the right you" Basic income is a conservative proposal (now gaining support among us liberals). My trog relatives are pimping the idea to me, a screaming pinko socialist hippie. The conservation appeal, rationalization of BI is fairness. It lifts the floor for everyone, doesn't reward cheating, doesn't thwart personal initiative, etc. Being easier to admin is…

> Basic income is a conservative proposal

Uh, what? In general conservatives consider basic income as welfare/wealth redistribution and hate the very notion of it. Just because some of your conservative relatives like it doesn't make it a conservative thing, it's very much a liberal policy, not a conservative one.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#702

Post by jklinger410 »

PietdeVries wrote: post #353
slowmotiony wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? They will get the money when they are 18, the rules work the same way for everyone.

Ah - and that is where the problem starts... What I've picked up from 'rule-making' so far is that rules in general are OK for 80% of the users. It's the 20% that is the exception (to the rule) and that requires additional rulings. And then the problem starts: of this 20% again only 80% is fixed by the extra rule, so more rules are needed. Then the third rule to fix things actually allows some to profit extra, so...…

This is not an excuse to fix problems.

You're seeing pitfalls in rolling this out, that's great, we can fix those. But saying it shouldn't exist at all (like many commenters are in this thread) because of potential problems here and there is nothing but defeatism.

If you don't like it, attack it at the principal. If you do like it then let's make it happen. None of this in between bullshit.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#703

Post by SilasX »

notahacker wrote: post #371
brightball wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make it work you'd have to take whatever the amount is and extract it from all other government benefit programs. You get $700 / month from the government for basic income. Your social security, welfare, unemployment, disability, etc is reduced by $700 / month. Reducing all of those programs by the first $700 would effectively gut each of them enough to finally make some reforms without inducing panic in everyone…

Why would you get bipartisan support for the FairTax? Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) over the middle classes (no matter how high the stipend is someone has to pay for the millionaires' tax cut) isn't exactly a popular proposal even on the right That…

Apples and oranges: millionaires would pay no tax on income, but would pay the full tax the moment the income is applied to consumption -- so sure, they could accumulate wealth untaxed, but in order to enjoy it rather than just stare at it (in theory -- see below), they'd have to pay the full rate. It doesn't seem very relevant to compare progressivity of income in preference to consumption.

With that said, the FairTax is bad for other reasons -- by concentrating all your taxation on something that's relatively easy to hide, you massively increase regulatory and compliance costs. Imagine the blooming industry in recharacterizing consumption purchases as investment purchases! (For the rich, "sufficiently advanced investment is indistinguishable from consumption".)

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#705

Post by forgotmysn »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #552
dragonwriter wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'd market UBI as "social security for everyone" - that sets both the level that people get No, it doesn't. Social security isn't a fixed amount, its based on prior earnings, adjusted by a wage index since the time they were earned, put through formula to get a base benefit amount in the year you start drawing them, and then inflation adjusted after retirement. So calling a UBI "Social Security for everyone" does no…

Sorry, I wasn't as clear about the plan as I could have been. To be more specific, I'd set UBI at a level that everyone who is currently getting Social Security based on age would rather switch to getting UBI instead. Then I'd discontinue SS and call the UBI program "Social Security", and pretend that I didn't get rid of the entire SS program. Wrap that change up as a package deal along with taxes to fund it, and cal…

im not sure people are happy enough with the implementation of social security to be sold with that premise. id sell it as a solution to social security, rather than an expansion of it

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#706

Post by gnaritas »

Unklejoe wrote: post #447
morgante wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop calling us "children." It's offense and rude. How very convenient that the cutoff of adulthood is your own age—if you're going to insult vast numbers of functional adults, at least insult yourself in the process. Silly child. First of all, you are in fact wrong. The majority of young adults do in fact live independently. [0] Second of all, if you think that adulthood isn't reached until 25, why would you be advo…

The link you posted doesn't seem to work. [How very convenient that the cutoff of adulthood is your own age] I chose the number 25 because it is usually a few years after most people have graduated college and have entered the work force. The number 25 is used in many places as a "special" age. Insurance companies, rental car companies, hotel bookings, etc... [you're going to insult vast numbers of functional adults,…

Most people don't get college degrees, so that's a poor jumping off point to begin with. Near 68% of Americans do not have a bachelors degree. Many who do enroll simply drop out long before graduating.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#707

Post by yuzi »

Side question: what prevents a basic income from being a driving force behind an inflation jump making the system less stable?

For example: rent. Wouldn't landlords managing properties at the low end of the market price, raise those prices knowing people both 1. have more distribution control over their money (cash vs. coupons for things) and 2. More people in their target market have cash to pay.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#709

Post by JDiculous »

MicroBerto wrote: post #535
n72 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mice don't play soccer, compose symphonies, do crosswords, watch TV, etc. In other words, we're considerably better filling our leisure time than they are. (I'm 43. 'Kiddo' is slightly insulting and, dare I say, condescending.)

> Mice don't play soccer, compose symphonies, do crosswords, watch TV, etc. In other words, we're considerably better filling our leisure time than they are. Yup, all those bored teens and violent criminals are going to be playing crossword puzzles and composing symphonies all day now that their rent is paid and bellies are full. I gotta get out of this thread. I may be bitter and pessimistic about humans, but you pe…

If basic income only provides enough to just get by - living in a crappy apartment, barely being able to afford basic groceries, and living paycheck to paycheck, do you really think everyone is just going to stop working and do nothing all day?

People are still going to want money for buying gadgets, going out, a better living space, cars, clothes, vacations, impressing girls, buying toys for their kids, etc.

Also I'd bet that a significant percentage of trust-fund babies work, and their trust funds generally provide them much more than a UBI would.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#710

Post by aninhumer »

dragonwriter wrote: post #528
akshatpradhan wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I suppose that can help sell the concept to highly partisan anti-liberals, but I know plenty of liberals and progressives who strongly support Basic Income. Anecdotal experience. My anecdotal experience is the opposite where the liberals I know believe increasing the minimum wage is that "next big step forward." They won't even give the idea of Basic Income a chance.

> My anecdotal experience is the opposite where the liberals I know believe increasing the minimum wage is that "next big step forward." They won't even give the idea of Basic Income a chance. UBI proponents have a lot of work to do putting together and coherently articulating a realistic, plausible route from where we are to where UBI hopes to get us. Most have been good at articulating a great picture of why a matu…

I mean, there are details to work out, but the general idea is fairly simple, start with a small UBI and slowly increase it, reducing or abolishing most of the existing welfare mechanisms as you go.

While enough to live on would be great, I think people underestimate the benefits of a smaller UBI. Even if it doesn't completely solve wage slavery, it can still ease the pressure, letting people work fewer hours, save money, and waste less of their savings between jobs.

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