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Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#71

Post by splawn »

mirimir wrote: post #66
splawn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my point is no one is truly immune from meme infection as its a side effect of having a brain, its not something you can control.... "Enjoy." "I'm lovin it."

Some memes immunize us against other memes. As a scientist, I'm immunized against all sorts of religious memes. But of course, carriers of religious memes are typically immunized (at least partially) against scientific memes.

I do not disagree with your point. However, if a meme works on the unconscious as many ad campaigns supposedly do, then it seems to me like anyone that makes the claim that they are "immune" should viewed skeptically. No one wants to think that advertising affects their choices, yet advertising seems to work.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#72

Post by crpatino »

applecore wrote: post #36

> I've decided to "opt-out" of this war entirely. Good luck with that, but advertising knows you better than you know yourself.

That's only because people in general know very little about themselves.

Socrates knew the answer all that time ago. Who would have thought!

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#73

Post by frogpelt »

DanAndersen wrote: post #38

Shamelessly reposting an earlier comment of mine ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9909259 ) because I feel it's relevant here: --- >For quite some time I've felt that advertising/marketing, at least the sort we've had for the past century or so, is inherently immoral. The fact that it's a necessary evil in our economic system doesn't stop it from being an evil. >Modern advertising is not merely informing people…

I wish you would explain how advertising is "inherently immoral".

But before you do, I'll explain why I disagree.

Advertising is selling ideas. You are selling an idea right now. Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral.

The old cliche, time is money, is basically true. People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from their time.

That's why a cheeseburger commercial works! People like cheeseburgers and they consider the value of their time to be maximized while eating one (versus not eating or eating something else).

If there was no food advertising at all, do you really think people would eat so much differently? I'm sure they would care less about the brand. But are some cheeseburgers more evil than other cheeseburgers?

Also, do you not think people get better and worse at self-control? The advertisers are adjusting their "attacks" (quite a harsh word) because the same marketing doesn't work forever. People adjust their defenses. They develop new weaknesses and strengths.

When I was young and broke, advertising NEVER worked on me. Now it works on me all the time because I have money to spend. I hear McDonald's commercials all the time but I hate their food (except the fries), so I don't go there.

The companies who produce advertisements and the share holders who pressure those companies are made up of regular people. Those people are trying to maximize the value of their time just like you are. Their advertising messages serve to do just that.

That's not "inherently immoral" in my view.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#74

Post by mirimir »

logfromblammo wrote: post #69
mirimir wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I beg to differ. It's the tricks that you describe that are the "fnords". And once you see them explicitly as tricks, they lose their power over you.

They lose their power, but they never stop being annoying. They constantly remind you that other people see you as an object to be manipulated, rather than as a person with its own individual motivations, thoughts, and opinions. And then you can also look at other people around you, and see that the same tricks still have power over them.

I find them amusing, like the tricks that children play to manipulate, rather than annoying :)

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#75

Post by mirimir »

splawn wrote: post #71
mirimir wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some memes immunize us against other memes. As a scientist, I'm immunized against all sorts of religious memes. But of course, carriers of religious memes are typically immunized (at least partially) against scientific memes.

I do not disagree with your point. However, if a meme works on the unconscious as many ad campaigns supposedly do, then it seems to me like anyone that makes the claim that they are "immune" should viewed skeptically. No one wants to think that advertising affects their choices, yet advertising seems to work.

Advertising works because most people are not consciously present most of the time. But one can learn to distinguish oneself from ones default thoughts, which are just recordings that get cued up by triggers. And be present.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#76

Post by daviross »

frogpelt wrote: post #73
DanAndersen wrote: post #38

Shamelessly reposting an earlier comment of mine ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9909259 ) because I feel it's relevant here: --- >For quite some time I've felt that advertising/marketing, at least the sort we've had for the past century or so, is inherently immoral. The fact that it's a necessary evil in our economic system doesn't stop it from being an evil. >Modern advertising is not merely informing people…

I wish you would explain how advertising is "inherently immoral". But before you do, I'll explain why I disagree. Advertising is selling ideas. You are selling an idea right now. Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. The old cliche, time is money, is basically true. People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from…

Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. It puts things at a moral deficit, at least. (In other words, it's not necessarily immoral, but it does mean there's ground to make up)

People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from their time. You're treating this as not having moral weight/impact. This isn't a neutral statement to encourage.

But are some cheeseburgers more evil than other cheeseburgers? Yes.

The advertisers are adjusting their "attacks" (quite a harsh word) because the same marketing doesn't work forever. People adjust their defenses. They develop new weaknesses and strengths. This behavior is most notably seen elsewhere in biology. It's not as positive of a comparison as I think you intend to make.

The companies who produce advertisements and the share holders who pressure those companies are made up of regular people. System effects are pretty uncontroversially a thing. What one person does in isolation can be very different in impact from an aggregate of people able to bring vast resources to bear is able to do. One person with a gun and a goal is a robbery. One nation with guns and a goal is an invasion.

Advertising would have a better claim at moral neutrality if it were explicitly opt-in. Not You're on this site, so you implicitly give permission to be bombarded with ads, but "Would you like to see an ad about X? Here you go, a one-time ad about X."

The concept of privacy extending to bodily autonomy isn't super-controversial. There shouldn't be an exclusion of the mind from the body either. Minimizing external 'mental subroutines' is a virtuous goal.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#77

Post by Nadya »

frogpelt wrote: post #73
DanAndersen wrote: post #38

Shamelessly reposting an earlier comment of mine ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9909259 ) because I feel it's relevant here: --- >For quite some time I've felt that advertising/marketing, at least the sort we've had for the past century or so, is inherently immoral. The fact that it's a necessary evil in our economic system doesn't stop it from being an evil. >Modern advertising is not merely informing people…

I wish you would explain how advertising is "inherently immoral". But before you do, I'll explain why I disagree. Advertising is selling ideas. You are selling an idea right now. Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. The old cliche, time is money, is basically true. People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from…

I'm going to advertise a YouTube video. It's just over 2 minutes in length and shows one reason why some people dislike advertisements of any sort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LIrN-5PQo

>Advertising is selling ideas.

More often it's advertising products and in a way that's manipulative.

>The companies who produce advertisements and the share holders who pressure those companies are made up of regular people. Those people are trying to maximize the value of their time just like you are.

That doesn't make their actions moral. A person robbing me to maximize the value of their time doesn't justify their action.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#78

Post by Bartweiss »

daviross wrote: post #76
frogpelt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish you would explain how advertising is "inherently immoral". But before you do, I'll explain why I disagree. Advertising is selling ideas. You are selling an idea right now. Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. The old cliche, time is money, is basically true. People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from…

Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. It puts things at a moral deficit, at least. (In other words, it's not necessarily immoral, but it does mean there's ground to make up) People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from their time. You're treating this as not having moral weight/impact. This isn't a neutral sta…

Your opt-in point is a powerful one, because it's not actually countered by the intuitive "but no one would do that".

Amazon's "Recommended for you" page is pretty good, and it's shown me some products I'm glad to own. If we imagine that model on steroids - a carefully cultivated webpage of products I want - I would check it regularly. Just a list of products with text and (optional) video explaining their features and why they're valuable to me.

If buying product X for Y dollars will improve my life, tell me and I'll do it consciously. The evil of advertising, then, is that every appeal to emotion, urgency, or social pressure is an implication that buying product X isn't going to improve my life, or at least that I should be prevented from deciding that rationally.

Modern advertising is a horrible combination of poor targeting and a race to the bottom.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#79

Post by Bartweiss »

DanAndersen wrote: post #38

Shamelessly reposting an earlier comment of mine ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9909259 ) because I feel it's relevant here: --- >For quite some time I've felt that advertising/marketing, at least the sort we've had for the past century or so, is inherently immoral. The fact that it's a necessary evil in our economic system doesn't stop it from being an evil. >Modern advertising is not merely informing people…

Advertising today is fundamentally about denying us the chance to listen to and reject messages. When someone's pushing a product on the rational part of our brains, it looks like Amazon's recommended list - features and a price, presented in the faith that we really do want the product.

Radio, TV, and web advertising, by contrast, all share the assumption that most people won't actually benefit from what's being presented (at least, won't benefit more than they would from some equivalent good). As such, the task is to ensure that we're preferentially aware of one brand or product, regardless of its merits.

Your last point is the scary one. Most people have no training of any sort in defending against cognitive failures. Most people's "can't trick me" tools amount to checking unit prices and serving sizes - hardly a strong defense against the combined wisdom of advertisers.

There's a real argument that modern advertising is basically an information hazard. Just hearing a product name a dozen times biases us regardless of our conscious efforts.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#80

Post by splawn »

mirimir wrote: post #75
splawn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your point. However, if a meme works on the unconscious as many ad campaigns supposedly do, then it seems to me like anyone that makes the claim that they are "immune" should viewed skeptically. No one wants to think that advertising affects their choices, yet advertising seems to work.

Advertising works because most people are not consciously present most of the time. But one can learn to distinguish oneself from ones default thoughts, which are just recordings that get cued up by triggers. And be present.

It sounds like you are saying it is possible to escape cognitive bias, but that might just be my cognitive bias getting in the way. :)
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